Author Topic: Schools  (Read 12531 times)

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Offline KelticKowboy

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Schools
« on: April 14, 2010, 05:06:03 PM »
I am aware that I cannot go onto school proverty OC'ing without a CPL but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?
KK

Offline hamaneggs

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Re: Schools
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 07:40:58 PM »
I read that was eliminated some time back.Don't have the particulars at this time.Maybe someone will see this and provide em.Or you can go on OCDO where I saw the info.Thats where I'm goin.
In GOD I TRUST! Luke 22:36 "and if You don't have a sword,sell Your cloak and buy one". Nehemiah 4:17 "Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other,and each of the builders wore his sword at His side as He worked."  I AGREE! AMEN!

Offline SpringerXDacp

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Re: Schools
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 11:55:00 PM »
I am aware that I cannot go onto school proverty OC'ing without a CPL but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?

No, as a Michigan resident you became "Licensed" (MCL 28.422) when you obtained your License To Purchase (LTP) and registered your pistol(s).  See Subparagraph (B), (i) and (ii).

18U.S.C. §  922q

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located
or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—

(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

Offline KelticKowboy

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Re: Schools
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 03:28:08 PM »
I am aware that I cannot go onto school proverty OC'ing without a CPL but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?

No, as a Michigan resident you became "Licensed" (MCL 28.422) when you obtained your License To Purchase (LTP) and registered your pistol(s).  See Subparagraph (B), (i) and (ii).

18U.S.C. §  922q

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located
or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—

(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.


So we are allowed to OC on school grounds and it does not matter whether I have a CPL or not when I OC in this case?
KK

Offline SpringerXDacp

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Re: Schools
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 04:44:48 PM »
No.  Your OP was in regards to distance from a school zone and you already knew that you could not OC on the property without a CPL.  If you have a CPL you can be any distance from a school zone to include being on school property if you OC.  18 USC, Sec922q, I posted is to demonstrate that the GFSZ does not include residents of the state (Michigan in this case) where the school zone is located.

Your CPL is your "License" in Michigan.  If you do not have a CPL you must obtain a LTP to purchase a handgun in Michigan.  Your LTP (28.422) is your "License" if you don't have a CPL.

Offline KelticKowboy

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Re: Schools
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 08:50:18 PM »
Is what you are stating in conflict with the OC Chart at the link below when it comes to OCing without a CPL?

http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php?topic=31.0
KK

Offline EM87

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Re: Schools
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 02:42:13 AM »
I would not OC on school property without a CPL.  I don't believe that a purchase permit would hold up in court as a license to carry on school property.  I'm not sure about the distance, sorry.
"You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87 (from opencarry.org)

Offline SpringerXDacp

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Re: Schools
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2010, 02:23:34 PM »
I would not OC on school property without a CPL.  I don't believe that a purchase permit would hold up in court as a license to carry on school property.  I'm not sure about the distance, sorry.

Keltic asked:  "...are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?"

You are certainly correct though and it can;t be stressed enough, do not OC on school property without a CPL.

stainless1911

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Re: Schools
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 10:35:15 PM »
Agreed, trust me, its not gonna fly, I was accused of it when I wasnt, and still found responsible of a civil infraction.

Offline EM87

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Re: Schools
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2010, 10:54:20 AM »
Agreed, trust me, its not gonna fly, I was accused of it when I wasnt, and still found responsible of a civil infraction.

You were accused of concealing on school property, is what I understand.  I'm not sure if that's what you meant here or not.
"You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87 (from opencarry.org)

stainless1911

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Re: Schools
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 09:18:05 PM »
right, I was accused when I wasnt. therefore, actually doing it will definitely land you in hot water.

Offline KelticKowboy

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Re: Schools
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2010, 06:27:05 PM »
When I initially created the post, my understanding of going on school property (k-12) was that I could only OC if I also had a CPL.  SpringerXDacp said that when I recieved a "License to Purchace" and register my pistol the law would allow me to OC on school property without a CPL, if I am understanding him correctly.  It sounds though that the concensus of those responding is to only OC on school (k-12) property if I have a CPL.

Getting back to my original question, "I am aware that I cannot go onto school proverty OC'ing without a CPL but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?" (This question should apply to state laws as well)  The reason I am asking this is because I live a half a bock away from a high school and wanted to make sure that I am not breaking any laws when I go for walks.  The school is on the opposite side of the road from the subdivision I live in and I usually don't walk directly on the property, but I do walk on the sidewalk across the road from the school.
KK

Offline Bronson

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Re: Schools
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2010, 08:29:02 PM »
When I initially created the post, my understanding of going on school property (k-12) was that I could only OC if I also had a CPL.  SpringerXDacp said that when I recieved a "License to Purchace" and register my pistol the law would allow me to OC on school property without a CPL, if I am understanding him correctly.  It sounds though that the concensus of those responding is to only OC on school (k-12) property if I have a CPL.

In MI you can only carry on school property by OCing with a CPL.  If you do not have a CPL the MI Pistol Purchaser's Permit may exempt you from the federal 1000 ft. rule, while the MI CPL will exempt you from the federal 1000 ft rule.

Quote
Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the
possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

In my mind, since we are required to take a basic knowledge test and pass a NICS check our Permit to Purchase should suffice but my opinion means nothing.

Bronson






Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline SpringerXDacp

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Re: Schools
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 07:17:35 AM »
When I initially created the post, my understanding of going on school property (k-12) was that I could only OC if I also had a CPL.  SpringerXDacp said that when I recieved a "License to Purchace" and register my pistol the law would allow me to OC on school property without a CPL, if I am understanding him correctly.  It sounds though that the concensus of those responding is to only OC on school (k-12) property if I have a CPL.

Getting back to my original question, "I am aware that I cannot go onto school proverty OC'ing without a CPL but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?" (This question should apply to state laws as well)  The reason I am asking this is because I live a half a bock away from a high school and wanted to make sure that I am not breaking any laws when I go for walks.  The school is on the opposite side of the road from the subdivision I live in and I usually don't walk directly on the property, but I do walk on the sidewalk across the road from the school.

No, that's not what I said.  I replyed to your question:
"...but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?"
If a resident of Michigan does not have a CPL, the LTP (your registered pistol) is the "license" that exempts you from the 1000 foot law.  This does not in any way, shape or form imply OC on school property being legal with a LTP.

Offline KelticKowboy

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Re: Schools
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 12:09:18 PM »
When I initially created the post, my understanding of going on school property (k-12) was that I could only OC if I also had a CPL. SpringerXDacp said that when I recieved a "License to Purchace" and register my pistol the law would allow me to OC on school property without a CPL, if I am understanding him correctly.  It sounds though that the concensus of those responding is to only OC on school (k-12) property if I have a CPL.

Getting back to my original question, "I am aware that I cannot go onto school proverty OC'ing without a CPL but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?" (This question should apply to state laws as well)  The reason I am asking this is because I live a half a bock away from a high school and wanted to make sure that I am not breaking any laws when I go for walks.  The school is on the opposite side of the road from the subdivision I live in and I usually don't walk directly on the property, but I do walk on the sidewalk across the road from the school.

No, that's not what I said.  I replyed to your question:
"...but are there any federal laws about being a certain distance to a school with a gun?"
If a resident of Michigan does not have a CPL, the LTP (your registered pistol) is the "license" that exempts you from the 1000 foot law.  This does not in any way, shape or form imply OC on school property being legal with a LTP.


I understand now...thank you!
KK

Offline KelticKowboy

  • Posts: 36
Re: Schools
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 08:46:46 PM »
Another question...if having a "License to Purchase" would prevent me from breaking the law for being withing 1000ft of a school,  why wouldn't this law also allow me to OC without a CPL on school property?  Is there a separate law?

Sorry for all of the questions, but I want to understand the laws as best I can especially since it directly effects me with where I live. I am within 1000 ft. of a school and I am also living in a rented house which I am wondering if also works into my situation of whether I can OC or not?
KK

Offline CoonDog

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Re: Schools
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2010, 12:13:20 AM »
KK, I believe you're missing the distinction that there are two sets of statutes in play here: federal and state.  First, I'll note that you are a CPL holder as that will make the discussion easier.

Under federal statute (which may or may not survive a challenge of jurisdiction), you cannot possess, on school property in your state, a firearm that has been engaged in interstate commerce, unless you have a license from your state.  There are two licenses in MI, the LTP and CPL, that disqualify this statute from applying to registered MI gun owners.  I don't believe that the federal statute makes any distinction between OC and CC, but I won't have it here in front of me to confirm.

Starting from scratch, so to speak, under MI law, you cannot carry in a weapon free school zone, as stated in MCL 750.237a(4) unless you qualify for an exemption in 750.237a(5).  CPL holders are exemption 750.237a(5)(c).  According to this statue, you can now carry on school property as a CPL holder.  So now you can carry on school property, but 28.425o(1)(a) prohibits concealed carry on school property, so you must OC if you are going to carry on school grounds.

You will also notice that there are other exemptions for school carry beyond the CPL exemption, but I do not address those here.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28e3zjlgulfq3max45uinvfd55%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-237a

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28ohfhir3fztfwffj4oqrbf545%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o

ETA: I have seen some discussion that schools may make their own policies regarding firearms carry and can ask you to leave the building and/or grounds.  I am not familiar with the particulars herein, so others will have to illuminate you on that topic.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 12:15:13 AM by CoonDog »
The OC movement helps gain acceptance for all forms of carry.

Offline KelticKowboy

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Re: Schools
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2010, 06:18:05 PM »
Ok...I'll try to make this the last question for clarification.  Is there any law that prevents me from legally OCing without a CPL near a school as long as I am not on school property.  Thank you!
KK

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Schools
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2010, 06:29:53 PM »
Not that I am aware of.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline dtmartin408

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Re: Schools
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2010, 10:24:06 PM »
I read a reply that said you can only oc on school property with a cpl and it sounded like they were implying that you couldn't conceal carry.  If i'm not mistaken you can also conceal carry as long as you are in a vehicle and picking up or dropping off a student at a school.