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Offline CrossPistols

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Letting CPL Expire
« on: February 13, 2011, 09:48:30 PM »
 By applying for a CPL you voluntarily forfeit your rights by saying I will obey the regulations set forth in a law concerning Conceal carry. By signing you are converting your right into a privilege allowing the Govt. to regulate. There for when my CPL expires I will not be renewing it, thus ending the states physical and legal ability to regulate my Carry of Arms. A police officer is sworn by oath or affirmation along with all Judges, and Congressman to uphold the Constitution (The supreme Law of the Land...(U.S. Constitution Article 6) to up hold the Laws thereof; the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. No law shall conflict with rights.  Now what say you?
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Offline Advanced Security

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 11:00:40 PM »
Quote from: CrossPistols on February 13, 2011, 09:48:30 PM
By applying for a CPL you voluntarily forfeit your rights by saying I will obey the regulations set forth in a law concerning Conceal carry. By signing you are converting your right into a privilege allowing the Govt. to regulate. There for when my CPL expires I will not be renewing it, thus ending the states physical and legal ability to regulate my Carry of Arms. A police officer is sworn by oath or affirmation along with all Judges, and Congressman to uphold the Constitution (The supreme Law of the Land...(U.S. Constitution Article 6) to up hold the Laws thereof; the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. No law shall conflict with rights.  Now what say you?
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Offline BTAvery

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2011, 11:08:43 PM »
Only reason I plan on getting a cpl beause vehicle carry is a pain in the ass.
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Offline JSteinmetz

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 08:25:35 AM »
While I do understand the thoughts behind this, I would still rather have my CPL. 

The laws are set in place by representatives elected by the people.  Imagine if more people had their CPL.  Those CPL holders would be the ones voting for representatives.  If 50% of all residents had their CPL, there would be a good chance that the elected person would have theirs as well.  I do not see basically boycotting CPLs due to the restrictions as being a good move.  Especially with the new House Bills being presented currently.

I think that we need to have more and more of us to help point out the current problems so something can be done about it.
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 07:25:27 PM »
Quote from: JSteinmetz on February 14, 2011, 08:25:35 AM
While I do understand the thoughts behind this, I would still rather have my CPL. 

The laws are set in place by representatives elected by the people (Yes, but those laws cannot negate a right-Article 6 U.S. Constitution).  Imagine if more people had their CPL.  Those CPL holders would be the ones voting for representatives.  If 50% of all residents had their CPL, there would be a good chance that the elected person would have theirs as well.  I do not see basically boycotting CPLs due to the restrictions as being a good move (I'm not Boycotting or asking anyone to do this either) .  Especially with the new House Bills being presented currently (Any new Law while s step in the right direction is still Unconstitutional)

Under Article 6 of the US Constitution  No law other than the ones in the Constitution can be made with out first Amending the Constitution thru A Convention or being ratified by 3/4 of the Sovereign states. Even then they legally cannot conflict with the Right of a Person (Rights are Inherent). We should not be spending time trying to make current laws more leanient, but we should be Repealing them. Further more Every last 2nd Amendment group should either be lobbying Congress to Repeal the Gun Laws, or sue every last Congressman for violating the Article 6.

I think that we need to have more and more of us to help point out the current problems so something can be done about it.
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 07:33:28 PM »
Quote from: BTAvery on February 13, 2011, 11:08:43 PM
Only reason I plan on getting a cpl beause vehicle carry is a pain in the ass.
 

What I'm saying is that you don't need a CPL to carry loaded or otherwise in a car, or while wearing a coat.   "Article 6"  You have a right to keep and Bear that is "Supreme Law of the Land"   "Article 6"   
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 08:09:51 PM »
While in theory I agree... good luck with that..
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Offline 13mile9

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 09:41:19 PM »
Quote
What I'm saying is that you don't need a CPL to carry loaded or otherwise in a car, or while wearing a coat.

So, does this mean that one of you first actions without a CPL will be to OC in your vehicle (clarification:  which is actually CC)?

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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2011, 07:11:58 AM »
OC in a vehicle is NOT CC. It is carrying otherwise.... which according to the various MCL's requires a CPL.

Crosspistols opinion is that the Constitution of MI overrides all of these MCL's... Like I said in theory a nice idea. In reality he better have a good attorney.
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Offline TheQ

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Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 08:50:14 AM »
While I agree Art. I Sec. 6 doesn't have a "*" by it saying "unless the legislature by law reasonably says otherwise."...


Good luck with that interpretation. If you get the Michigan Supreme Court to overturn your conviction on it (which you will be convicted of a 5 year felony -- say goodbye to all your guns) we'll all declare you a hero.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 08:52:23 AM by TheQ »
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2011, 08:52:32 PM »
Quote from: 13mile9 on February 14, 2011, 09:41:19 PM
Quote
What I'm saying is that you don't need a CPL to carry loaded or otherwise in a car, or while wearing a coat.

So, does this mean that one of you first actions without a CPL will be to OC in your vehicle (clarification:  which is actually CC)?

Not OC,  just plain Carrying by Right in a Vehicle. Do you really believe either Constitution (The US or Michigan's) entitles you to carry, unless your cold and have to wear a coat, or you have to get into a car to go to work? You have a right, regardless of what you wear, or what you do. Even if you robbed a store your only crime by Constitutional law is the robbery, the gun is irrelevant the punishment should be severe regardless if a gun was worn or not. It's Against the law to steal, not carry a gun
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2011, 08:55:06 PM »
Quote from: autosurgeon on February 15, 2011, 07:11:58 AM
OC in a vehicle is NOT CC. It is carrying otherwise.... which according to the various MCL's requires a CPL.

Crosspistols opinion is that the Constitution of MI overrides all of these MCL's... Like I said in theory a nice idea. In reality he better have a good attorney.

Not only does Article 1 section 6 of the Michigan Constitution over ride all MCL's it is a re-enforcement of the 2nd, and both stem from Article 5 and 6 of the U.S. Constitution.
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2011, 09:27:26 PM »
Look at it this way...We have an inherent right to religion anywhere anytime, no permits needed, we have free speech any where anytime, no permit needed, so on and so forth. You have to realize that as long as you do not Violate, damage, and or harm any one, your rights what ever they may be, have to be protected by Govt. (Article 6 U.S. Const.) by Judges, by cops etc. If a city passes a law saying no praying in the street, then by Article 6 the Govt. is suppose to come in on our behalf and enforce the 1st Amendment...By saying look here "City" the 1st is  Supreme Law of the Land, and this law Violates the right to pray same goes for the right to carry. A concealing  Permit violates the right to carry, no where in the Constitution is there a law against wearing a coat there for carrying under a coat cannot be against the law. Regardless if the people vote in a law, or elect some one to represent them in the Congress. The same goes for the right to keep and bear. The only difference between the first and second Amend. is that the free speech advocates have convinced Americans that the 1st is what keeps government in check, and that the 1st is for the people, and the 2nd is for the Military. Also anti gun people have convinced sheople that guns kill, when we all know it is People. Socialist have to find or make a problem, then playing on the fears of the bleeding hearts they come up with a solution, then set a fee or fine.  CPL is an example of Turning a right into a privilege, and I fell for it, and we keep perpetuating the problem by supporting CPL's and any further Legislation other than repealing CPL's.   Before I got a CPL if I was pulled over for a mere traffic violation I was never asked if I had a gun, because with out RAS they cannot ask, but now that I have a CPL, I agreed to let them ask legally. 
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Offline 13mile9

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2011, 11:38:44 PM »
Hey, I think we are all on board with ya with where you are going with your point.   However, with the current MCL's in place...I don't think very many are ready to get on board with ya on the Oakland County bus head'n to lock up....to serve out a term.   ;D      I'm trying to be a little funny....however, I personally appreciate the argument you have presented!
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Offline drtodd

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2011, 11:21:30 PM »
Quote from: CrossPistols on February 13, 2011, 09:48:30 PM
By applying for a CPL you voluntarily forfeit your rights by saying I will obey the regulations set forth in a law concerning Conceal carry. By signing you are converting your right into a privilege allowing the Govt. to regulate. There for when my CPL expires I will not be renewing it, thus ending the states physical and legal ability to regulate my Carry of Arms. A police officer is sworn by oath or affirmation along with all Judges, and Congressman to uphold the Constitution (The supreme Law of the Land...(U.S. Constitution Article 6) to up hold the Laws thereof; the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. No law shall conflict with rights.  Now what say you?

Do as thou willst...
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"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline Michigander

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2011, 12:24:17 AM »
Rather than risk prison time, I think it might make the most sense to sue the state for arbitrarily denying you your constitutionally protected rights. No reason why you couldn't be the next McDonald or Heller if you get a good lawyer on your side. It would be rather cool if you managed to get a SCOTUS case that ensured 50 state unlicensed carry. It is possible.
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Offline ocdetroit

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2011, 02:05:55 PM »
 ::) ::) HUM Carry On.
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2011, 09:33:34 PM »
Thank you DrTodd. I knew some one would get to where I was going!

Two of my Fav's  below...

"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

basically there should be a few politicians in jail at the state level alone for violations of the constitution..Oh gee wouldn't that be swell
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2011, 09:37:59 AM »
Quote from: Michigander on February 19, 2011, 12:24:17 AM
Rather than risk prison time, I think it might make the most sense to sue the state for arbitrarily denying you your constitutionally protected rights. No reason why you couldn't be the next McDonald or Heller if you get a good lawyer on your side. It would be rather cool if you managed to get a SCOTUS case that ensured 50 state unlicensed carry. It is possible.

Michigander great to hear from you, it's been quite some time. You know as well as I do there are only two ways to get to the Supreme court...Money,  and More Money.  Sad thing is I shouldn't have to defend my right that has already been Guaranteed by Constitution, and Argued and Won in court. The Courts Obligation by Oath is to punish Violators of those rights I.E. Cops, Judges, Politicians so on so fourth.

Dr Todd has two Case laws at the bottom of his post in this thread, these have not been over turned.
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2011, 11:14:39 AM »
   I'm sorry I have one more thing to say on this, and it stems from Michiganders post.  I shouldn't have to get a lawyer to argue for the 50 states,  I thought that was the role of the NRA. I shouldn't need a lawyer to sue the state to defend my right to carry, while wearing a coat, or drive a car. I thought that was the role of MCRGO, MGO,  & MOC.  I have a right by constitutional Law. What we need is to drop this OC and CPL debate and go straight to Suing Congressman for violating State and U.S.Constitutions.  We need as a group, and as Individuals is to pool our money and go from Offensive to defensive mode, and start hitting Congressmen, Executive, and Judicial Officers where it hurts...The Wallet.
  Remember when we started OC'ing?  We didn't get a lawyer to sue, we risked getting arrested and harassed. Some of us walked by our selves and got Harassed, so we grouped together and got Harassed but we won because we are Right.  "Strength in Numbers"
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2011, 11:32:01 AM »
I assume you meant go from defence to offence....

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Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2011, 11:36:19 AM »
Quote from: autosurgeon on February 20, 2011, 11:32:01 AM
I assume you meant go from defence to offence....

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

Well I guess your right, I mean we OC and get harassed, then we have to defend. I want to make the first move, A pass or run move so you tell me.  In the end it will be a defense of rights.
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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2011, 11:42:14 AM »
Quote from: autosurgeon on February 20, 2011, 11:32:01 AM
I assume you meant go from defence to offence....

Maybe he meant to gets off da fence.

And why are we discussing fences? Aren't they a bit hard to open carry?
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 01:21:15 PM »
An good offence is the best defence... however unfortunatly we are not always given the luxery of knowing what others are planning so we end up on defence.



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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2011, 01:36:50 PM »
Quote from: autosurgeon on February 20, 2011, 01:21:15 PM
An good offence is the best defence... however unfortunatly we are not always given the luxery of knowing what others are planning so we end up on defence.



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I get it now...

Getting off fence is best for dee fence.

That must be why my dad always yelled at me to get off thee fence.
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Offline 13mile9

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2011, 02:13:16 PM »
Quote from: CrossPistols on February 20, 2011, 11:14:39 AM
    What we need is to drop this OC and CPL debate and go straight to Suing Congressman for violating State and U.S.Constitutions........ Remember when we started OC'ing?  We didn't get a lawyer to sue, we risked getting arrested and harassed. Some of us walked by our selves and got Harassed, so we grouped together and got Harassed but we won because we are Right.  "Strength in Numbers"

Just out of my own curiousity, to bring this back to the topic of your original post;  when your CPL expires, will you continue to "vehicle carry" and enter "PFZ's" in the same manner as you do now with the CPL?    Forgive me if I am wrong, but at this juncture, OC'n in a park, restuarant, etc, and having to deal with uneducated police & bad city ordinances, is on a different level than dealing with police during a traffic stop and your handgun is holstered, sitting on the seat, etc.... 

Just curious.... 
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2011, 02:13:43 PM »
(:

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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2011, 09:17:28 PM »
Quote from: 13mile9 on February 20, 2011, 02:13:16 PM
Quote from: CrossPistols on February 20, 2011, 11:14:39 AM
    What we need is to drop this OC and CPL debate and go straight to Suing Congressman for violating State and U.S.Constitutions........ Remember when we started OC'ing?  We didn't get a lawyer to sue, we risked getting arrested and harassed. Some of us walked by our selves and got Harassed, so we grouped together and got Harassed but we won because we are Right.  "Strength in Numbers"

Just out of my own curiousity, to bring this back to the topic of your original post;  when your CPL expires, will you continue to "vehicle carry" (Yes) and enter "PFZ's" in the same manner as you do now with the CPL? (Yes)    Forgive me if I am wrong, but at this juncture, OC'n in a park, restuarant, etc, and having to deal with uneducated police & bad city ordinances, is on a different level than dealing with police during a traffic stop and your handgun is holstered, sitting on the seat, etc.... 

Just curious.... A PFZ requires you to have a CPL, does not say you have to have it on you. There fore as long as I open carry the cops won't know whether I have a CPL or not, and since the Fire arm is not Concealed I don't have to disclose.  Regardless I don't intend to hide anything the idea is to go about my normal daily schedule, if stopped and questioned, all I will do is ask if I am being detained, if so I will plead the 4th, and 5th. 

"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

[/b][/b]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 09:21:24 PM by CrossPistols »
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Offline jeffsayers

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2011, 02:36:23 AM »
Hats off to you sir! We all should remember that if our ancesters never violated any laws there would be no United States of America. I am very apprehensive about it, but your words are in my mind now. And I fear they are getting comfortable...
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2011, 06:58:09 AM »
Quote from: jeffsayers on February 21, 2011, 02:36:23 AM
Hats off to you sir! We all should remember that if our ancestors never violated any laws there would be no United States of America. I am very apprehensive about it, but your words are in my mind now. And I fear they are getting comfortable...

The Beauty here Jeff is that I won't be breaking any Lawful laws, Only exercising a right. The cops will be Violating the Law Ironic aren't it?

It reminds me of the Army, they told us we had to follow orders of the higher ranking, up to but not more than an Unlawful order.  I was held to that standard, and had to know the difference. I think we should hold our Legislative and Judicial Officers to the same Standard.
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Offline jeffsayers

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2011, 09:55:20 AM »
You know, after a couple hours sleep...

Can we count on our constitutions anymore? Do any units of government actually abide by them? For pete's sake at this very moment we have an order signed by a judge effectively revoking our right to petition a local unit of government for redress off our grievances!

Starting to think this should be saved for the revolution and continue to work with the corrupted system for the time being. Not to say the thinking has stopped...
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Offline 13mile9

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 02:13:04 PM »
Quote from: jeffsayers on February 21, 2011, 02:36:23 AM
........ I am very apprehensive about it, but your words are in my mind now. And I fear they are getting comfortable...

in agreement.

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Offline TheSzerdi

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2011, 10:49:13 PM »
I fully agree with CrossPistols, however, I do not have the legal fund to fight for constitutional carry.
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Offline CrossPistols

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2011, 10:05:07 AM »
Quote from: TheSzerdi on February 21, 2011, 10:49:13 PM
I fully agree with CrossPistols, however, I do not have the legal fund to fight for constitutional carry.

I don't either, then again I didn't have the funds for OC either, but I felt I was right enough to fight! Almost Compelled and  I was Harassed, but in the end I was right, and I am right Here as well. Ted Nugent said it in the last video Posted on MOC..."If there were no document, lets say I was put down here on earth all by my self, I Have a Right to Defend Myself"     " Anytime, Anywhere, with Anything."
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Offline markculbert

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 05:29:23 PM »
2X checking out MI restriction: must have a license to BUY handgun (varies by state).  Are BAFT C&Relics (i.e. older CZ 82 commonly available ready to role-play c. $220-260...)EXEMPT from need to secure permit/license before ordering/buying a hand gun in Michigan?  If exempt for holders of a C&R $30 BAFT license (good for c. 4-5 years maybe); may they therefore be carried OPENLY alongside more red-taped hand weapons owned by others who SECURED a permit to purchase from  local police department?
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Offline Big Gay Al

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Re: Letting CPL Expire
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2011, 11:14:46 PM »
Quote from: markculbert on March 01, 2011, 05:29:23 PM
2X checking out MI restriction: must have a license to BUY handgun (varies by state).  Are BAFT C&Relics (i.e. older CZ 82 commonly available ready to role-play c. $220-260...)EXEMPT from need to secure permit/license before ordering/buying a hand gun in Michigan?  If exempt for holders of a C&R $30 BAFT license (good for c. 4-5 years maybe); may they therefore be carried OPENLY alongside more red-taped hand weapons owned by others who SECURED a permit to purchase from  local police department?
As I understand it, even an FFL dealer has to register all the handguns he has on stock.  So this also applies to a C&R license holder as well.  Perhaps even more so, since a C&R license means you're a collector, not a dealer.
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