Author Topic: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.  (Read 46687 times)

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Offline kubel

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2011, 08:31:21 PM »
1) I had a similar question regarding the fact that we are (broadly) defined in a restraining order and thus could have implications on our CPL or gun purchases. But it's only temporary. It will be resolved in court one way or another.

2) A peaceful picket is up to you, you are of course free to do so. But I think our point is very well known. At this stage, it's most important now that the court takes our point. I think it's best to lay low for a while. I think the library has a good case suggesting they are an autonomous authority but I think we have a better case since their board is appointed by local governments, they are funded by local government tax money, they are in a building owned by a local government, and they provide a public service. Their other argument is it's a school, which is flawed since we can OC with a CPL. As long as the judge properly interprets the law, we will win.

3) Carrying a knife, like carrying a long gun, is probably 100% legal (and for the sake of liberty, I'm all for it), but its more difficult to argue practicality lugging around a long gun or a sword (and I'm not suggesting one would need a 'reason' anyway, but for whatever reason, people are typically more comfortable around a holstered pistol than a shouldered long gun). In other words, I feel you are free to do it and would support you, but others may not.

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2011, 08:47:00 PM »
This won't be as clear and easy as the Ferndale ruling. This case will boil down to whether or not CADL's board is a local unit of government, and it's something they have a chance of winning.

If it's not, what would prevent any local unit of government from just establishing a separate 'authority' to make all its laws under? If we win this, it would be a major victory for liberty.

What they are doing is trying to push the envelope for entities which are authorized at the state level, which they claim allows them to make up whatever rules they want as they go along, regardless of any other laws and protections. Much like I believe every last community college board in the entire state has done since the enactment of the community colleges act. This may very well bite them all in the ass.

This will certainly be the biggest gun rights case in the state since MCRGO took on Ferndale. It is simply unfortunate that it had to be a library which can play itself off as a mild mannered childrens environment/place of learning, vs us, now tainted as not so serious about self defense, rather just trying to carry there with toys and long guns to piss people off. As I said on OCDO, being painted as a bully towards libraries is one of the few things that will get almost any individual from any political spectrum to think you are a fool. May as well kill kittens for a sport. Not that we don't all have a certified right to be seen as obnoxious fools, but it certainly doesn't further our cause, and it certainly pisses me off. Professionalism is something that we all NEED to emphasize as we carry. (I do hope it's clear that I'm not slamming anyone who respectably carried a holstered and registered handgun to the library)

Looking back to the beginning, when we had the first meeting and everyone who heard about it, including our family and closest friends told us we would get arrested and that we were nuts, I am beyond grateful that MOC has evolved to have such well spoken reps, and these days enough of a support network to take this on. 3 years ago these reckless actions could have much more easily ended open carry, or otherwise devastated lawful carry in the state both through new laws and through court cases. Regardless of how this case turns out, I hope it will be an important lesson in how we conduct ourselves, and why.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 08:55:20 PM by Michigander »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2011, 12:33:46 AM »
Three things:

First how would this affect members in terms of the 4473 question "Are you currently under a restraining order?"?

Second is anyone up for a peaceful picket of the Library?  Don't go in, or even cross on to their "property", just stand outside on the sidewalk maybe with signs, open carrying of course.  They think they can keep lawful carriers out, lets see how they feel about the entire sidewalk lined with people lawfully carrying so that anyone who goes in, or out will have to pass through the line, not to try to stop anyone, they can freely go in, and out, just as we can freely stand there, and let them, and everyone else see that we are not going away, maybe even bring the long guns out just to make a point.

Third what is their policy on knives?, what's to stop someone from rubbing their collective faces in it by say carrying a Sabre in?  OK maybe that's a little silly but these smarmy egotistical bastards are making me angry. >:(

I think that a peaceful picket at the library is a wonderful idea.

But shouldn't we follow the example set forth by the one that really got this off the ground and moving in the first place?

Let's all rally around him and open carry Airsoft guns just like he did!

That would really send a message to those egotistical bastards that we mean business and that we take Airsoft open carry serious.

Those people have got to be shown that we are not about to let them prevent us from carrying a toy gun anywhere that is lawful!!!
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Offline kryptonian

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2011, 01:14:36 AM »
win or lose i think a legal precedent will be set. a win of course will shoot down individual entities from establishing seperation from 'unit of govt' and a loss could be a foothold against premption. this would then turn to case law and used by judges all over the state. fingers crossed on this one.
i don't fear the barking dog...i'm scared of the quiet dog

Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2011, 01:34:36 AM »
Three things:

First how would this affect members in terms of the 4473 question "Are you currently under a restraining order?"?

Second is anyone up for a peaceful picket of the Library?  Don't go in, or even cross on to their "property", just stand outside on the sidewalk maybe with signs, open carrying of course.  They think they can keep lawful carriers out, lets see how they feel about the entire sidewalk lined with people lawfully carrying so that anyone who goes in, or out will have to pass through the line, not to try to stop anyone, they can freely go in, and out, just as we can freely stand there, and let them, and everyone else see that we are not going away, maybe even bring the long guns out just to make a point.

Third what is their policy on knives?, what's to stop someone from rubbing their collective faces in it by say carrying a Sabre in?  OK maybe that's a little silly but these smarmy egotistical bastards are making me angry. >:(

I think that a peaceful picket at the library is a wonderful idea.

But shouldn't we follow the example set forth by the one that really got this off the ground and moving in the first place?

Let's all rally around him and open carry Airsoft guns just like he did!

That would really send a message to those egotistical bastards that we mean business and that we take Airsoft open carry serious.

Those people have got to be shown that we are not about to let them prevent us from carrying a toy gun anywhere that is lawful!!!

?  What am I missing?

Offline emt805

  • Posts: 229
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2011, 05:25:00 AM »
In the TRO they explain it as a public library, on page 6 and 7 items 34&35 they speak of being  a weapon free zone and school property listing MCL 750.237a. But as we all know
(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
so a weapon free zone is not a true weapon free zone.

And really number 53? It is proven that legal carry is not to be feared but those that are criminals

#7 on the affidavit, I hate to tell you but OC of long guns is also legal.

#11 " a patron shouted at the man carrying a gun to," get the hell out of the library""
That to me sounds like a threat to those carrying legally and lawful

This pisses me off on the thing listed MCR 3.310(B)(1)(b)
"A. I did not notify Defendant or its members that we intended to request this Honorable Court for a restraining order to restrain Defendants from violating CADL's weapons Policy for the reasons that Plaintiff is fearful that notice will cause Defendants to harm CALD and public by accelerating its non-conforming activities."
When has MOC been shown to be violent for sticking up for our rights?

on the ex-parte emergency motion for TRO
#6 unless injunctice relief is granted preventing Defendant and its members from entering CADL's premises, CALD and its library patrons will face immediate and irreparable harm
How so? You should submit the letter about patrons threatening to not allow and cause harm to legal carriers entering the library

#12 Neither defendant nor the pblic interest  will be harmed by the granting of  injunctive relief
Not true it will create a criminal empowerment zone knowing that we cannot defend ourselves when needed.

#15 Think about the kids!!! So families cannot protect themselves? I have seen numberous reports about people being harmed and raped at public libraries.

Under facts of Brief un support of plaintiff's motion page they point out CADL is following MCL 397.182
(a) Establish, maintain, and operate a public library for the district.
(g) Enter into a contract to receive library-related service from or give library-related service to a library or a municipality within or without the district.

Offline smellslikemichigan

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2011, 07:13:08 AM »
In the TRO they explain it as a public library, on page 6 and 7 items 34&35 they speak of being  a weapon free zone and school property listing MCL 750.237a. But as we all know
(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
so a weapon free zone is not a true weapon free zone.

And really number 53? It is proven that legal carry is not to be feared but those that are criminals

#7 on the affidavit, I hate to tell you but OC of long guns is also legal.

#11 " a patron shouted at the man carrying a gun to," get the hell out of the library""
That to me sounds like a threat to those carrying legally and lawful

This pisses me off on the thing listed MCR 3.310(B)(1)(b)
"A. I did not notify Defendant or its members that we intended to request this Honorable Court for a restraining order to restrain Defendants from violating CADL's weapons Policy for the reasons that Plaintiff is fearful that notice will cause Defendants to harm CALD and public by accelerating its non-conforming activities."
When has MOC been shown to be violent for sticking up for our rights?

on the ex-parte emergency motion for TRO
#6 unless injunctice relief is granted preventing Defendant and its members from entering CADL's premises, CALD and its library patrons will face immediate and irreparable harm
How so? You should submit the letter about patrons threatening to not allow and cause harm to legal carriers entering the library

#12 Neither defendant nor the pblic interest  will be harmed by the granting of  injunctive relief
Not true it will create a criminal empowerment zone knowing that we cannot defend ourselves when needed.

#15 Think about the kids!!! So families cannot protect themselves? I have seen numberous reports about people being harmed and raped at public libraries.

Under facts of Brief un support of plaintiff's motion page they point out CADL is following MCL 397.182
(a) Establish, maintain, and operate a public library for the district.
(g) Enter into a contract to receive library-related service from or give library-related service to a library or a municipality within or without the district.

it's all about the non-conformance isn't it?  this reminds me of an old humorous saying... "the beatings will continue until moral improves"
they want to keep smacking us until we fall in line with the rest of the sheeple.
"I like users who quote themselves in their signature lines." -smellslikemichigan

Offline northofnowhere

  • Posts: 281
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2011, 07:52:30 AM »
beating would be cruel and unusual punishment to improve moral, they should try water boarding, approved by the feds and everything.
Jason E. Reese aka northofnowher

Offline TheElk

  • Posts: 39
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2011, 12:10:39 PM »
http://www.wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=14053227
CADL Granted Restraining Order Against Michigan Open Carry

Excerpt:
Officials at the CADL say anyone carrying a weapon into the library will be asked to leave and if they do not comply law enforcement will be called. However, they say those people would be welcomed back to the library if they do not bring a weapon.

Their TRO says they are afraid that we are dangerous. Yet we are allowed back if we don't have a weapon? You would think they would be afraid of us concealing as well, if of course we are that dangerous. Ridiculous.
I'm MarineSgt on OCDO and smalls on MGO. Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

Offline DetroitBiker

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2011, 11:02:24 PM »
Does anybody know if there is a sign on the doors at the CADL saying No Weapons,or No Firearms?

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2011, 11:13:45 PM »
Or no Airsoft gunz?
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Offline DetroitBiker

  • Posts: 93
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2011, 11:37:31 PM »
Or no Airsoft gunz?
Hehe  ;D  Hey I saw in another thread that you were out looking for a new carry piece. Did ya find anything good?

I was working on mine earlier today,just waiting for the first coat of stain to dry before I can apply another.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 11:41:25 PM by DetroitBiker »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2011, 11:48:56 PM »
Or no Airsoft gunz?
Hehe  ;D  Hey I say in another thread that you were out looking for a new carry piece. Did ya find anything good?

I was working on mine earlier today,just waiting for the first coat of stain to dry before I can apply another.

No luck. Sprinklerguy was a smart alec and sent me down the street in the wrong direction.

I ended up at Home Depot and got some duct tape to make my new stainless.v2 drop leg holster. I'm going shopping at toys r us tomorrow with my granddaughter looking to see what they might have.

Are you using a urethane based stain or oil based on yours? Be careful. I read over on another forum that using a urethane based stain will void the warranty on some of the manufactured ones like yours. That's why I prefer to hand carve mine. I'll look for a link later for you.

This is the one I'm looking to get:

« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 11:57:22 PM by CV67PAT »
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Offline DetroitBiker

  • Posts: 93
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2011, 12:22:20 AM »
Are you using a urethane based stain or oil based on yours? Be careful. I read over on another forum that using a urethane based stain will void the warranty on some of the manufactured ones like yours. That's why I prefer to hand carve mine.

yeah I went with Oil, I read about the urethane problems on Blocktalk.com 

 heres the model I went with

 





 ;D

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2011, 12:43:20 AM »
Are you using a urethane based stain or oil based on yours? Be careful. I read over on another forum that using a urethane based stain will void the warranty on some of the manufactured ones like yours. That's why I prefer to hand carve mine.

yeah I went with Oil, I read about the urethane problems on Blocktalk.com 

 heres the model I went with

 





 ;D

I like that a whole lot better than the one I was looking to get. It's got that modernistic cellulose fiber look. And the grain is nice and tight. I love the placement of the knot too. It accents it so well.

Do you think you could put together a group buy for all the members that want one. Maybe we could get a discount if we get enough interest.

Maybe we could even get them in time for the hearing on the TRO.

I'm pretty good with a can of krylon too. We could save a few bucks by not having to send them off for finishing to that shop that sprinklerguy used. That place is so anti-oc. I was there once. He's got a big sign on the front door that says "no loaded firearms allowed". He put it up just because some fellow exercising his rights had an accidental discharge, while showing off his gun, that destroyed the glass display case and almost killed the dog. What a scaredy cat. If you can't handle a few accidental discharges in your shop, you shouldn't be a gunsmith.

Sorry to get off topic.

In any case I want one of those if you can get a group buy together. Count me in. I'll just have to put off renewing my membership for a while.
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Offline TheQ

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Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2011, 01:01:34 AM »
Does anybody know if there is a sign on the doors at the CADL saying No Weapons,or No Firearms?

I can confirm there is NO signage about their weapons policy.

I have suggested in the past (To Denny) they consider adding one if they insist on enforcing their policy.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2011, 01:06:55 AM »
Does anybody know if there is a sign on the doors at the CADL saying No Weapons,or No Firearms?

I can confirm there is NO signage about their weapons policy.

I have suggested in the past (To Denny) they consider adding one if they insist on enforcing their policy.

Huh?!?!?

You suggested that they put up a sign to enforce an unlawful policy?!?!?

That makes about as much sense as retreating just because Denny said so. Duh!
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Offline TheQ

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Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2011, 01:10:49 AM »

Huh?!?!?

You suggested that they put up a sign to enforce an unlawful policy?!?!?

That makes about as much sense as retreating just because Denny said so. Duh!

I'd like to see them forced to stick up an MOC Lawful Carry Welcome sticker as the results of a counter-suit...
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2011, 01:23:58 AM »

Huh?!?!?

You suggested that they put up a sign to enforce an unlawful policy?!?!?

That makes about as much sense as retreating just because Denny said so. Duh!

I'd like to see them forced to stick up an MOC Lawful Carry Welcome sticker as the results of a counter-suit...

Had you not retreated, you could have had that stipulated in your suit.
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Offline DetroitBiker

  • Posts: 93
Re: Temporary Restraining Order-CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2011, 11:04:43 AM »

That place is so anti-oc. I was there once. He's got a big sign on the front door that says "no loaded firearms allowed". He put it up just because some fellow exercising his rights had an accidental discharge, while showing off his gun, that destroyed the glass display case and almost killed the dog. What a scaredy cat. If you can't handle a few accidental discharges in your shop, you shouldn't be a gunsmith.

[/quote]

What!... Todd never heard about a desk pop before?  Every gun shop has a desk pop at least once a year.  That's just normal procedure,nothing to get worked up about. My last one  was like in sept.08    LOL ;D


« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:06:42 AM by DetroitBiker »