Author Topic: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438  (Read 23812 times)

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Offline JEFulton

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No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« on: March 20, 2011, 12:12:24 PM »
A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library.  Now a bill has been introduced into the Michigan Senate to add to the list of "Pistol Free Zones", public libraries.  All of this while we have bills in both houses of the Michigan legislature.  Now because of this incident, those bills have stalled.  My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive.  Attitudes do not change overnight and patience is a key.  It took a long time for our society to develop a negative attitude about firearms and it will take a long time for us to restore it to the way it should be.  I had dinner with one of the legislative aides to a high ranking Michigan Senator and he informed me that because of this incident that the bills to remove pistol free zones have temporarily stalled.  Let's make sure we temper our actions with our long term goals in mind!

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2011, 05:13:44 PM »
While, I agree with most of your comments; I would like to shed a little light on what drove the individual to do what he did at the CADL main branch.
It was a bad idea, but remember he is a 19 yr. old as I understand it, hence the poor judgment call. Why carry the long gun?
He was frustrated with Lansing PD. They have illegally refused to issue him a pistol purchase permit, hence leaving his choice of firearms for protection very limited. Why would LPD do this? Simple, the youngster spoke ill of them in a news report in regards to their lack of knowledge when it came to the law & OC. So they showed him, they have sat on his pistol purchase permit request for over a year now saying "it's still under review".
This is PC speak for you made us look bad, so we'll show you kid! Ha take that you little punk.
Now remember, you have a law enforcement agency breaking/bending the law because they don't like a citizen who otherwise meets the requirements to obtain a pistol permit. Sadly this happens because there are no teeth in the law to force a local Police Department to issue.
In fact they can just stall to infinity under the current structure of the law in MI. Oh and you can only obtain a pistol purchase permit from your local Police Agency, so if they don't like you even though you qualify under the law, YOU ARE SCREWED PERIOD!
While his actions were in poor judgment, I believe all law abiding citizens should have the right to defend themselves with the best tool they have available to them, in this case thanks to LPD being ASSHATS it was a shotgun so who really deserves our venom here? I think there are plenty in authority who have managed so far to keep the other side of the story from getting to the public.
Sincerely,
A law abiding citizen who believes the law should apply to all, even those charged with upholding it, but I guess that's too much to ask of LPD, Virg Benero, or any of the other flunkies in Lansing city government. >:(
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline TheQ

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No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2011, 08:09:27 PM »
There was always the fact LPD was denying him a LTP for no lawful reason, ergo he could not get a handgun
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Offline venator

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2011, 08:24:26 PM »
I suspect those bills would have stalled anyway.  So will the library addition.
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline TheQ

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No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2011, 11:17:45 PM »
I suspect those bills would have stalled anyway.  So will the library addition.
I was told the PFZ bills wouldn't be addressed until after the budget. This information comes from persons close to the Senate Judiciary Chairman.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline Super Trucker

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 11:28:26 PM »
I suspect those bills would have stalled anyway.  So will the library addition.

ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[/thread]

Offline BTAvery

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2011, 01:17:12 AM »
Thanks for the recommendations (btw its a Kimber Pro Carry) didn't find any of the EFMJ going to look later today and going to try some Remington.

Offline Bronson

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2011, 02:43:29 AM »
Joel is that you....or is it Jared?

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline venator

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2011, 02:37:21 PM »
A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library.  Now a bill has been introduced into the Michigan Senate to add to the list of "Pistol Free Zones", public libraries.  All of this while we have bills in both houses of the Michigan legislature.  Now because of this incident, those bills have stalled.  My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive.  Attitudes do not change overnight and patience is a key.  It took a long time for our society to develop a negative attitude about firearms and it will take a long time for us to restore it to the way it should be.  I had dinner with one of the legislative aides to a high ranking Michigan Senator and he informed me that because of this incident that the bills to remove pistol free zones have temporarily stalled.  Let's make sure we temper our actions with our long term goals in mind!

They should be writing a constitutional carry bill like several other states anyway.  4 now are CON CARRY. 
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline JEFulton

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM »
That is good additional information.  My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit?  If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229.  I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits.  The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....".  It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved.  The police are not above the law and must comply.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 01:03:00 AM »
Everyone keeps saying that there is no lawful reason for not issuing the permit. But there is and he even had it posted on his own Facebook page. It was revealed by beerme and posted on OCDO.

Insofar as carrying as strutting into the library with a shotgun is concerned, if it was his only means of defense why then did he return with a toy bb gun in his subsequent trips? A toy gun that one member here has stated was lawfully registered as required by state law.

This bb gun, airsoft gun, pellet gun, whatever you want to call it today is supposedly registered according to one poser here. How then was he lawfully in possession of it if he can't get a permit and doesn't have a CPL?

Let's start the music and watch the dancing on the head of the pin over this again.
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline Bronson

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 03:08:24 AM »
Let's start the music and watch the dancing on the head of the pin over this again.

I don't really like dancing but...

This bb gun, airsoft gun, pellet gun, whatever you want to call it today is supposedly registered according to one poser here. How then was he lawfully in possession of it if he can't get a permit and doesn't have a CPL?

It meets the definition of a pistol as defined by MI law so regardless of what any of us think it IS a pistol.  He was able to get a Permit to Purhcase/Possess for the pellet pistol but they will not approve another one so he can purchase a grown up gun.  You know all of this.

So he's left with a few options, all of which are sucky in their own way.  He can go unarmed, or he can carry a pellet gun under the same laws as anybody else who OCs without a CPL, or he can carry a long gun with everything that brings.  He made his choice and he stated his reasons.  I doubt I would have made the same choice but....actually I know I wouldn't have, but that's beside the point because it wasn't me.

What he did was legal.
What the Library is doing isn't.  They are claiming that as an "authority" they are not bound by pre-emption even though they are formed form two separate local units of government that ARE bound by pre-emption.  This is the real issue here and this fight was coming eventually.  But again, you know all of this.

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 12:03:18 AM »
AMEN Bronson! +1,000,000,000,000,000,000. Now let us unite, rise up & kick these want to be fascists square in their asses (not literally..not promoting violence) for having the nerve to suggest they are indeed above the law!

Any Judge who rules using terms such as "I feel" instead of "the law states" should be yanked from the bench so fast it makes their head spin. United we win. Divided we will surely fall under the jackboots of these little "Authority" tin-pot dictators >:(
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 12:48:41 AM »
That is good additional information.  My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit?  If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229.  I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits.  The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....".  It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved.  The police are not above the law and must comply.

Joel  - I will pass this information along. Please be advised though that the law, MCL 28.422 has no sanctions for an agency that refuses to comply, hence you literally have departments out there that will not issue based solely on if they like you or not. They way the system is supposed to work is if an agency denies/refuses to issue, they flag the citizen as a "risk" in the LEIN system, which in turn generates an automatic hearing before the MSP review board. Local PD's wiggle around this by refusing to place the flag in the system & magically the citizen never gets a permit, nor the chance of a hearing to tell their side if the story.

Weak laws = corrupt/defiant government officials.  The only route left to a citizen in these cases is to hire an attorney & go after them in court, which LPD knows damn well this youngster cannot afford to do. >:(
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 01:04:17 AM by Glock9mmOldStyle »
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline JEFulton

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 12:49:46 PM »
Glock9mmOldStyle, you are correct that there are no penalties in the law for agencies who arbitraily deny someone a permit to purchase a handgun.  That is where the aAttorney General's Office comes in.  The Michigan AG has the ability, on behalf of the citizen, to sue the agency for failing to comply with the law.  It is a fairly large club and the mere threat of the suit is often more than enough to bring the agency into compliance.  It was used quite effectively here in Battle Creek several years ago when they were illegally charging $20 for purchase permits.  They are now free thanks to the Michigan AG (Mike Cox at the time)!!

Offline smellslikemichigan

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 04:24:32 PM »
That is good additional information.  My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit?  If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229.  I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits.  The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....".  It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved.  The police are not above the law and must comply.
freedom firearms?  unless it's a shotgun. why would he want to buy a gun from someone who is publicly so anti-2nd amendment as your first post clearly demonstrates?
"I like users who quote themselves in their signature lines." -smellslikemichigan

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2011, 12:24:01 AM »
That is good additional information.  My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit?  If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229.  I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits.  The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....".  It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved.  The police are not above the law and must comply.
freedom firearms?  unless it's a shotgun. why would he want to buy a gun from someone who is publicly so anti-2nd amendment as your first post clearly demonstrates?

SmellsLikeMI,

After I posted the reason Lil_freak_66 chose to LGOC Joel offered to help. I in no way found him to be anti 2A you know me & my stance, if you want to carry a bazooka then so be it, however make sure it is this weapon for the task at hand. In this case little freaks choices were limited to bad (Remington 870) & worse (BB/pellet pistol) for self protection by LPD! Given those crappy choices I'd have carried my long gun also.



Let's not turn on each other here - as we are all striving for the same goals. Freedom to protect ourselves & families from harm. Pretty straight forward correct? Peace be with you all.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 12:26:51 AM by Glock9mmOldStyle »
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline BTAvery

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2011, 01:02:37 AM »
Personally I applaud his balls to OC the Remington.

Offline smellslikemichigan

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2011, 08:10:43 AM »
That is good additional information.  My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit?  If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229.  I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits.  The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....".  It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved.  The police are not above the law and must comply.
freedom firearms?  unless it's a shotgun. why would he want to buy a gun from someone who is publicly so anti-2nd amendment as your first post clearly demonstrates?

SmellsLikeMI,

After I posted the reason Lil_freak_66 chose to LGOC Joel offered to help. I in no way found him to be anti 2A you know me & my stance, if you want to carry a bazooka then so be it, however make sure it is this weapon for the task at hand. In this case little freaks choices were limited to bad (Remington 870) & worse (BB/pellet pistol) for self protection by LPD! Given those crappy choices I'd have carried my long gun also.



Let's not turn on each other here - as we are all striving for the same goals. Freedom to protect ourselves & families from harm. Pretty straight forward correct? Peace be with you all.
in case you misunderstood, i fully support lil freak.  what i did take issue with was the fact that a seller of firearms would seek to limit or support the limitation of the places one could carry said firearms.
"I like users who quote themselves in their signature lines." -smellslikemichigan

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2011, 03:12:01 PM »
SLM wrote: "in case you misunderstood, i fully support lil freak.  what i did take issue with was the fact that a seller of firearms would seek to limit or support the limitation of the places one could carry said firearms."

No I didn't misunderstand, where in any of his posts (Joel's) did you see him advocating for limiting any firearm rights? Not trying to argue here, as that's the last thing we need.

Peace be with you  ;D
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993