Author Topic: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438 (Read 23116 times)

JEFulton · « **on:** March 20, 2011, 12:12:24 PM »

A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library. Now a bill has been introduced into the Michigan Senate to add to the list of "Pistol Free Zones", public libraries. All of this while we have bills in both houses of the Michigan legislature. Now because of this incident, those bills have stalled. My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive. Attitudes do not change overnight and patience is a key. It took a long time for our society to develop a negative attitude about firearms and it will take a long time for us to restore it to the way it should be. I had dinner with one of the legislative aides to a high ranking Michigan Senator and he informed me that because of this incident that the bills to remove pistol free zones have temporarily stalled. Let's make sure we temper our actions with our long term goals in mind!

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2011, 05:13:44 PM »

While, I agree with most of your comments; I would like to shed a little light on what drove the individual to do what he did at the CADL main branch.
It was a bad idea, but remember he is a 19 yr. old as I understand it, hence the poor judgment call. Why carry the long gun?
He was frustrated with Lansing PD. They have illegally refused to issue him a pistol purchase permit, hence leaving his choice of firearms for protection very limited. Why would LPD do this? Simple, the youngster spoke ill of them in a news report in regards to their lack of knowledge when it came to the law & OC. So they showed him, they have sat on his pistol purchase permit request for over a year now saying "it's still under review".
This is PC speak for you made us look bad, so we'll show you kid! Ha take that you little punk.
Now remember, you have a law enforcement agency breaking/bending the law because they don't like a citizen who otherwise meets the requirements to obtain a pistol permit. Sadly this happens because there are no teeth in the law to force a local Police Department to issue.
In fact they can just stall to infinity under the current structure of the law in MI. Oh and you can only obtain a pistol purchase permit from your local Police Agency, so if they don't like you even though you qualify under the law, YOU ARE SCREWED PERIOD!
While his actions were in poor judgment, I believe all law abiding citizens should have the right to defend themselves with the best tool they have available to them, in this case thanks to LPD being ASSHATS it was a shotgun so who really deserves our venom here? I think there are plenty in authority who have managed so far to keep the other side of the story from getting to the public.
Sincerely,
A law abiding citizen who believes the law should apply to all, even those charged with upholding it, but I guess that's too much to ask of LPD, Virg Benero, or any of the other flunkies in Lansing city government.

TheQ · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2011, 08:09:27 PM »

There was always the fact LPD was denying him a LTP for no lawful reason, ergo he could not get a handgun

venator · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2011, 08:24:26 PM »

I suspect those bills would have stalled anyway. So will the library addition.

TheQ · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2011, 11:17:45 PM »

Quote from: venator on March 20, 2011, 08:24:26 PM

I suspect those bills would have stalled anyway. So will the library addition.

I was told the PFZ bills wouldn't be addressed until after the budget. This information comes from persons close to the Senate Judiciary Chairman.

Super Trucker · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2011, 11:28:26 PM »

Quote from: venator on March 20, 2011, 08:24:26 PM

I suspect those bills would have stalled anyway. So will the library addition.

ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[/thread]

BTAvery · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:17:12 AM »

Thanks for the recommendations (btw its a Kimber Pro Carry) didn't find any of the EFMJ going to look later today and going to try some Remington.

Bronson · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2011, 02:43:29 AM »

Joel is that you....or is it Jared?

Bronson

venator · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2011, 02:37:21 PM »

Quote from: JEFulton on March 20, 2011, 12:12:24 PM

A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library. Now a bill has been introduced into the Michigan Senate to add to the list of "Pistol Free Zones", public libraries. All of this while we have bills in both houses of the Michigan legislature. Now because of this incident, those bills have stalled. My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive. Attitudes do not change overnight and patience is a key. It took a long time for our society to develop a negative attitude about firearms and it will take a long time for us to restore it to the way it should be. I had dinner with one of the legislative aides to a high ranking Michigan Senator and he informed me that because of this incident that the bills to remove pistol free zones have temporarily stalled. Let's make sure we temper our actions with our long term goals in mind!

They should be writing a constitutional carry bill like several other states anyway. 4 now are CON CARRY.

JEFulton · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM »

That is good additional information. My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229. I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits. The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....". It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved. The police are not above the law and must comply.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2011, 01:03:00 AM »

Everyone keeps saying that there is no lawful reason for not issuing the permit. But there is and he even had it posted on his own Facebook page. It was revealed by beerme and posted on OCDO.

Insofar as carrying as strutting into the library with a shotgun is concerned, if it was his only means of defense why then did he return with a toy bb gun in his subsequent trips? A toy gun that one member here has stated was lawfully registered as required by state law.

This bb gun, airsoft gun, pellet gun, whatever you want to call it today is supposedly registered according to one poser here. How then was he lawfully in possession of it if he can't get a permit and doesn't have a CPL?

Let's start the music and watch the dancing on the head of the pin over this again.

Bronson · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2011, 03:08:24 AM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on March 22, 2011, 01:03:00 AM

Let's start the music and watch the dancing on the head of the pin over this again.

I don't really like dancing but...

Quote from: CV67PAT on March 22, 2011, 01:03:00 AM

This bb gun, airsoft gun, pellet gun, whatever you want to call it today is supposedly registered according to one poser here. How then was he lawfully in possession of it if he can't get a permit and doesn't have a CPL?

It meets the definition of a pistol as defined by MI law so regardless of what any of us think it IS a pistol. He was able to get a Permit to Purhcase/Possess for the pellet pistol but they will not approve another one so he can purchase a grown up gun. You know all of this.

So he's left with a few options, all of which are sucky in their own way. He can go unarmed, or he can carry a pellet gun under the same laws as anybody else who OCs without a CPL, or he can carry a long gun with everything that brings. He made his choice and he stated his reasons. I doubt I would have made the same choice but....actually I know I wouldn't have, but that's beside the point because it wasn't me.

What he did was legal.
What the Library is doing isn't. They are claiming that as an "authority" they are not bound by pre-emption even though they are formed form two separate local units of government that ARE bound by pre-emption. This is the real issue here and this fight was coming eventually. But again, you know all of this.

Bronson

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2011, 12:03:18 AM »

AMEN Bronson! +1,000,000,000,000,000,000. Now let us unite, rise up & kick these want to be fascists square in their asses (not literally..not promoting violence) for having the nerve to suggest they are indeed above the law!

Any Judge who rules using terms such as "I feel" instead of "the law states" should be yanked from the bench so fast it makes their head spin. United we win. Divided we will surely fall under the jackboots of these little "Authority" tin-pot dictators

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2011, 12:48:41 AM »

Quote from: JEFulton on March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM

That is good additional information. My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229. I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits. The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....". It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved. The police are not above the law and must comply.

Joel - I will pass this information along. Please be advised though that the law, MCL 28.422 has no sanctions for an agency that refuses to comply, hence you literally have departments out there that will not issue based solely on if they like you or not. They way the system is supposed to work is if an agency denies/refuses to issue, they flag the citizen as a "risk" in the LEIN system, which in turn generates an automatic hearing before the MSP review board. Local PD's wiggle around this by refusing to place the flag in the system & magically the citizen never gets a permit, nor the chance of a hearing to tell their side if the story.

Weak laws = corrupt/defiant government officials. The only route left to a citizen in these cases is to hire an attorney & go after them in court, which LPD knows damn well this youngster cannot afford to do.

JEFulton · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2011, 12:49:46 PM »

Glock9mmOldStyle, you are correct that there are no penalties in the law for agencies who arbitraily deny someone a permit to purchase a handgun. That is where the aAttorney General's Office comes in. The Michigan AG has the ability, on behalf of the citizen, to sue the agency for failing to comply with the law. It is a fairly large club and the mere threat of the suit is often more than enough to bring the agency into compliance. It was used quite effectively here in Battle Creek several years ago when they were illegally charging $20 for purchase permits. They are now free thanks to the Michigan AG (Mike Cox at the time)!!

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2011, 04:24:32 PM »

Quote from: JEFulton on March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM

That is good additional information. My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229. I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits. The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....". It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved. The police are not above the law and must comply.

freedom firearms? unless it's a shotgun. why would he want to buy a gun from someone who is publicly so anti-2nd amendment as your first post clearly demonstrates?

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2011, 12:24:01 AM »

Quote from: smellslikemichigan on March 23, 2011, 04:24:32 PM

Quote from: JEFulton on March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM
That is good additional information. My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229. I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits. The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....". It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved. The police are not above the law and must comply.
freedom firearms? unless it's a shotgun. why would he want to buy a gun from someone who is publicly so anti-2nd amendment as your first post clearly demonstrates?

SmellsLikeMI,

After I posted the reason Lil_freak_66 chose to LGOC Joel offered to help. I in no way found him to be anti 2A you know me & my stance, if you want to carry a bazooka then so be it, however make sure it is this weapon for the task at hand. In this case little freaks choices were limited to bad (Remington 870) & worse (BB/pellet pistol) for self protection by LPD! Given those crappy choices I'd have carried my long gun also.

Let's not turn on each other here - as we are all striving for the same goals. Freedom to protect ourselves & families from harm. Pretty straight forward correct? Peace be with you all.

BTAvery · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2011, 01:02:37 AM »

Personally I applaud his balls to OC the Remington.

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2011, 08:10:43 AM »

Quote from: Glock9mmOldStyle on March 24, 2011, 12:24:01 AM

Quote from: smellslikemichigan on March 23, 2011, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: JEFulton on March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM
That is good additional information. My question is this: Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton) at my gun shop, Freedom Firearms, at 269-968-4229. I would argue that the agency has discretion to issue pistol purchase permits. The exact phrasing of the law, MCL 28.422(3), says "....shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses....". It would be my sincere pleasure to assist this your man by contacting my friend Attorney General Bill Schuette and getting this issue resolved. The police are not above the law and must comply.
freedom firearms? unless it's a shotgun. why would he want to buy a gun from someone who is publicly so anti-2nd amendment as your first post clearly demonstrates?

SmellsLikeMI,

After I posted the reason Lil_freak_66 chose to LGOC Joel offered to help. I in no way found him to be anti 2A you know me & my stance, if you want to carry a bazooka then so be it, however make sure it is this weapon for the task at hand. In this case little freaks choices were limited to bad (Remington 870) & worse (BB/pellet pistol) for self protection by LPD! Given those crappy choices I'd have carried my long gun also.

Let's not turn on each other here - as we are all striving for the same goals. Freedom to protect ourselves & families from harm. Pretty straight forward correct? Peace be with you all.

in case you misunderstood, i fully support lil freak. what i did take issue with was the fact that a seller of firearms would seek to limit or support the limitation of the places one could carry said firearms.

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2011, 03:12:01 PM »

SLM wrote: "in case you misunderstood, i fully support lil freak. what i did take issue with was the fact that a seller of firearms would seek to limit or support the limitation of the places one could carry said firearms."

No I didn't misunderstand, where in any of his posts (Joel's) did you see him advocating for limiting any firearm rights? Not trying to argue here, as that's the last thing we need.

Peace be with you

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2011, 03:20:27 PM »

don't worry, i don't feel like we're having an argument, just a civil discussion.
joel wrote:
"A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library."
"My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive."
"Let's make sure we temper our actions with our long term goals in mind!"

these were the statements i was referring to. IMO there is nothing "cute" about exercising ones rights. my rights are not subject to the emotional responses they may cause in someone else. i love when people use this one, so i'm going to ask it. was rosa parks "cute" when she sat in the front of the bus? or was she simply exercising a preexisting right?

CV67PAT · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2011, 03:27:20 PM »

Rosa Parks wasn't an attention whore.

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2011, 03:30:40 PM »

haha, there needs to be a godwin's law for rosa parks

Bronson · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2011, 01:13:53 AM »

smellslikemichigan, you really couldn't be more wrong about JEFulton. I know him, his wife, and his brother and they are a driving force for the rights of gun owners in the Battle Creek & Marshall area. They have tremendous contact and influence with the gun owners in this area and it would behoove MOC to have the Fultons as allies.

Bronson

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2011, 07:47:08 AM »

then he needs to choose his words more carefully

CV67PAT · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2011, 02:07:43 PM »

Quote from: smellslikemichigan on March 25, 2011, 07:47:08 AM

then he needs to choose his words more carefully

It would appear that he chose his words carefully... On both sides of the discussion.

It takes a bit of skill to be able to talk out of both sides of your mouth.

autosurgeon · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2011, 10:55:26 PM »

Gentlemen might I remind you that we are not always going to agree on every detail in this fight. However that does not mean we need to attack a brother who has a proven track record such as JEFulton.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2011, 03:12:31 AM »

Quote from: autosurgeon on March 25, 2011, 10:55:26 PM

Gentlemen might I remind you that we are not always going to agree on every detail in this fight. However that does not mean we need to attack a brother who has a proven track record such as JEFulton.

You are so right autosurgeon. Except that JEFulton just doesn't even seem to agree with himself:

Quote from: JEFulton on March 20, 2011, 12:12:24 PM

A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library. Now a bill has been introduced into the Michigan Senate to add to the list of "Pistol Free Zones", public libraries. All of this while we have bills in both houses of the Michigan legislature. Now because of this incident, those bills have stalled. My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive.

Quote from: JEFulton on March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM

Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton)...

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #28 on:** March 26, 2011, 01:58:46 PM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on March 26, 2011, 03:12:31 AM

Quote from: autosurgeon on March 25, 2011, 10:55:26 PM
Gentlemen might I remind you that we are not always going to agree on every detail in this fight. However that does not mean we need to attack a brother who has a proven track record such as JEFulton.

You are so right autosurgeon. Except that JEFulton just doesn't even seem to agree with himself:

Quote from: JEFulton on March 20, 2011, 12:12:24 PM
A couple of weeks ago someone got cute about their right to carry open and openly carried a shotgun into the Lansing Public Library. Now a bill has been introduced into the Michigan Senate to add to the list of "Pistol Free Zones", public libraries. All of this while we have bills in both houses of the Michigan legislature. Now because of this incident, those bills have stalled. My admonishion is this: Remember that you do not live in an insulated bubble and your actions have repercussions both negative and positive.

Quote from: JEFulton on March 21, 2011, 04:06:43 PM
Is the Lansing PD still refusing to issue this young gentlman his purchase permit? If so, have him contact me (Joel Fulton)...

Hi Pat,

I get your issue here, but taking things in context is always a good thing. He offered to help after the situation was fully explained to him. I know you dislike Lil_freak & that's your right, but he did nothing illegal that I know of so far in this event. So far the only people breaking the law are the: LPD, CADL & The Judge in this case. Go figure aye? I also know how much you love poking sticks in peoples eyes on the board, hey if that makes you smile, I say have at it Sir

I know you are a true supporter of our 2A rights & that's all that matters to me!

Carry on openly/concealed or whatever in between...

G9OS

TheQ · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2011, 03:09:19 PM »

Quote from: autosurgeon on March 25, 2011, 10:55:26 PM

Gentlemen might I remind you that we are not always going to agree on every detail in this fight. However that does not mean we need to attack a brother who has a proven track record such as JEFulton.

I'm sorry, I don't know who Joel Fulton is, should I?

hamaneggs · « **Reply #30 on:** March 26, 2011, 04:40:38 PM »

Quote from: JEFulton on March 23, 2011, 12:49:46 PM

Glock9mmOldStyle, you are correct that there are no penalties in the law for agencies who arbitraily deny someone a permit to purchase a handgun. That is where the aAttorney General's Office comes in. The Michigan AG has the ability, on behalf of the citizen, to sue the agency for failing to comply with the law. It is a fairly large club and the mere threat of the suit is often more than enough to bring the agency into compliance. It was used quite effectively here in Battle Creek several years ago when they were illegally charging $20 for purchase permits. They are now free thanks to the Michigan AG (Mike Cox at the time)!!

Yes,their new boss can force them to abide by the law!

13mile9 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 26, 2011, 04:55:22 PM »

Q, I don't know who is either...mainly because I am not from that area. But, several people in MOC seem to know who is. Once understanding this bit of information (that a few folks here know him and know about him), his opening post baffled me even further.

His post came across as if he didnt' know anyone associated with MOC, and set the tone for thread.

mosnar87 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 28, 2011, 12:02:41 AM »

Joel is the owner of the gun shop where we met for the Battle Creek OC walk, IIRC.

autosurgeon · « **Reply #33 on:** March 28, 2011, 12:44:32 AM »

Quote from: mosnar87 on March 28, 2011, 12:02:41 AM

Joel is the owner of the gun shop where we met for the Battle Creek OC walk, IIRC.

Yep you hit the nail on the head!

venator · « **Reply #34 on:** March 29, 2011, 10:00:34 AM »

Joel is a very passionate and staunch supporter of the 2A. He spoke at the 2A March rally in Lansing last year and attended the rally in D.C. He donated his time and money to the March. He is very politically involved in gun right issues.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #35 on:** April 04, 2011, 03:26:18 PM »

Why would he think its cute for someone to strut into the library with a shotgun then?

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #36 on:** April 04, 2011, 03:28:31 PM »

no seemed to have an answer when i brought that up too...

*cricket*

Markalon · « **Reply #37 on:** April 07, 2011, 10:14:42 AM »

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong...

Isn't the legal age to purchase a pistol 21? You can own one as early as 18 (in other words, register it) but it has to have been given to you as a gift because you must be 21 to purchase one yourself.

Or am I totally messed up?

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #38 on:** April 07, 2011, 11:31:07 AM »

you're almost right. however, it is legal to purchase a pistol under 21, just not from an FFL. you have to do it from a private individual.

Markalon · « **Reply #39 on:** April 07, 2011, 11:37:52 AM »

Ah, okay. But then, do you still need a purchase permit if you're buying from an individual?

(I'm studying up to get my FFL... lol.)

smellslikemichigan · « **Reply #40 on:** April 07, 2011, 11:45:59 AM »

you need a permit to purchase if you don't have a CPL. but whether you have a CPL or not your handgun always has to be registered

Bronson · « **Reply #41 on:** April 07, 2011, 01:37:56 PM »

Quote from: Markalon on April 07, 2011, 11:37:52 AM

Ah, okay. But then, do you still need a purchase permit if you're buying from an individual?

(I'm studying up to get my FFL... lol.)

More studying is in order

To purchase a handgun in MI you must have either a CPL or a License to Purchase/Posssess.

Per Federal law you must be 21 to purchase from a Federally licensed dealer. This applies to all states as it's a Fed. rule.

Per MI law you may purchase a handgun at 18 but since the Feds. require you to be 21 to purchase from a dealer an 18-20 yr old must purchase from a private individual.

Per MI law you must be 21 to obtain a CPL so anybody under 21 must use a License to Purchase/Possess and buy from a private individual.

Bronson

Markalon · « **Reply #42 on:** April 08, 2011, 06:47:06 AM »

Thank you. And yes, I knew all of that, except the part about <21 being able to purchase from a private individual. I thought you needed to be 21 to get a purchase permit at all, which means <21 would not be able to purchase a pistol even from a private individual, unless no permit is required for a private purchase.

Seeing as how an FFL dealer isn't allowed to sell to anybody <21 anyway, I didn't think it was a big deal to know this. But more info is always better! lol. Thanks.

hamaneggs · « **Reply #43 on:** April 14, 2011, 02:27:04 PM »

Having bought my first S&W model 29 at the age of 20 from a sheriffs deputy in 77',and having an FFL from 85' to 91'(when I started to learn how legislation works,how screwed up our gun laws were and being informed that OC was legal by Lenawee,Monroe,Wayne and Washtenaw sheriffs), I have to point out how much work we have to get these laws in line with our rights and what a fight it's going to be in this PC brainwashed society! Patience and Truth, We will Win! Fretting and Fearing, We will lose! FRET NOT, FEAR NOT, WE WIN! CARRY ON!

News:

Author Topic: No Carry in Libraries - MI SB4438 (Read 23116 times)