Stopped my LEO whilst riding my bicycle

[dlgeorge]

Saturday I was alone riding my bicycle around the block, which is a 3 mile ride since I live in the country. I was open carrying my Ruger P90. I was passed by several cars including this white unmarked SUV.

I didn't think anything of it until he turned around. He stopped in front of me and the lights went on. I don't think he was responding to a call, because he was wearing a K9 police uniform. I think he was just driving by and stopped and turned around because he saw the gun holstered on my hip. He directed me to the side of the road and asked me why I was carrying a gun. I said for personal protection. He said, and I am paraphrasing, "I know you are just excercising your right, but people get nervous when they see a gun". I said that may be true, but I'm not breaking any law. "I know you're not, but people aren't used to seeing someone riding their bike carrying a gun. I don't know you and I need to check out someone carrying a gun in public." Again, I said I'm not breaking any law by doing so.

When he asked for ID, I then asked if the only reason he was pulling me over was because of the gun. When he said yes, I said, "then you know that I'm not required to show you ID. He said "I know, but I'm asking you please to produce some ID. If you have a CPL, then I will know there are no warrants on you and we'll be done". At that point I had to make a decision. Should I take the hardline, or show him ID to get it over with? I showed him my DL and CPL and was on my way immediately. I know, here is where some of you will criticise me for not standing firm, but the guy was very polite, and was not one of those anti-gun dirty harry types, so I showed it to him. He was being polite and understanding, so I in turn was as well. After all, it is not only about "our" perception of the LEO's, but there perception of us as well.

Anyway, the encounter went well I thought, and lasted about 3 minutes and I was on my way, still open carrying all the way home.

[TheQ]

Did you inform him you had a CPL and were carrying as you're required to do by law when you in a "vehicle"?

[BTAvery]

Seems fine to me if someones polite there's less reason to not give them your ID. If an officer ever stopped me and was polite about it he would get to see my name my age on my ID and the picture because to be honest I have a baby face and I'm only 19. If he were rude then I would accept the 12 or 15 minute terry stop and be on my way.

[northofnowhere]

I would have provided the ID as well, and think you did great.  The officer made it clear he understood your rights, understood you did not have to provide ID or a CPL, and even said if you showed him your CPL he would know you were a law abiding citizen.  Sounds like he respected your rights, the act of getting a CPL, and treated you with respect the entire time.  I have no problem working with officers like this, it is the ones looking for any reason to jam you up with I am uncooperative with, and it is typically obvious which ones are which.

[venator]

I would have provided the ID as well, and think you did great.  The officer made it clear he understood your rights, understood you did not have to provide ID or a CPL, and even said if you showed him your CPL he would know you were a law abiding citizen.  Sounds like he respected your rights, the act of getting a CPL, and treated you with respect the entire time.  I have no problem working with officers like this, it is the ones looking for any reason to jam you up with I am uncooperative with, and it is typically obvious which ones are which.

Most people know where I stand on this.  I'm sure many people are polite before, during and after they violate your rights.

Most officers are polite, UNTIL you refuse to give them ID, then they change quickly.  No reason to be impolite when the sheep do what you say. 

Complying with requests just reinforces the mentality that you must comply with the police, even when not required to.  Then when someone does stand up for their rights, the police get upset because they are used to the sheep complying.  It's negative reenforcement

[northofnowhere]

We shall continue to agree to disagree respectfully venator. 

[ocdetroit]

I could understand if this was his first LEO Encounter. If not I feel the Officer should have learned something else, and or tell me that he knows this also.  You would have asked him did he read the Michigan State Police's Update I think it's #86. If i am going to asked you questions u say u already know that i am not breaking any laws thenyou are just holding me up from going about my daily business. Am I being detained?. If not buy.  Carry ON. 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

I would have provided the ID as well, and think you did great.  The officer made it clear he understood your rights, understood you did not have to provide ID or a CPL, and even said if you showed him your CPL he would know you were a law abiding citizen.  Sounds like he respected your rights, the act of getting a CPL, and treated you with respect the entire time.  I have no problem working with officers like this, it is the ones looking for any reason to jam you up with I am uncooperative with, and it is typically obvious which ones are which.

Most people know where I stand on this.  I'm sure many people are polite before, during and after they violate your rights.

Most officers are polite, UNTIL you refuse to give them ID, then they change quickly.  No reason to be impolite when the sheep do what you say. 

Complying with requests just reinforces the mentality that you must comply with the police, even when not required to.  Then when someone does stand up for their rights, the police get upset because they are used to the sheep complying.  It's negative reenforcement

It amazes me how often officers say I know you're just exercising your rights...oh by the way now I'm going to violate them. WTF? If you hold your ground you may be hassled but if it goes longer than the allowed time under Terry v. OHIO you will win a law suit period! This is the only way these type of folks seem to learn. If an officer was polite and asked your wife to strip because he thinks she may be hiding coconuts under her shirt would you take it off for him? NO! How is this any different? If you are not breaking any laws then it's none of his damned business who you are, where you are going etc... Now be advised that in the past very polite officers have asked for IDs / CPLs and been given them by legally gathered OCers. What did they do with that info? They wrote letters to local gun boards trying to get the CPLs of those individuals revoked. Rest assured there is a LEIN entry about your bicycle travels now in the system. 

[TheQ]

Here's what else they probably did: wrote the OCers info down and a note in the agency's Database that doesn't exist and you can't FIOA because no one knows about it...

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Here's what else they probably did: wrote the OCers info down and a note in the agency's Database that doesn't exist and you can't FIOA because no one knows about it...

You are correct many local PDs maintain their own databases to which only they have access. When FOIA's are submitted the response is always no such data exists. How can this be? The law is only useful as long as those enforcing them obey them...and we all know how that goes these days [see CADL vs. MOC].

[TheQ]

Here's what else they probably did: wrote the OCers info down and a note in the agency's Database that doesn't exist and you can't FIOA because no one knows about it...

You are correct many local PDs maintain their own databases to which only they have access. When FOIA's are submitted the response is always no such data exists. How can this be? The law is only useful as long as those enforcing them obey them...and we all know how that goes these days [see CADL vs. MOC].

They say it don't exist. You say it does. They say, "prove it" -- and then the lawyers get rich.

[METL]

It amazes me how often officers say I know you're just exercising your rights...oh by the way now I'm going to violate them. WTF? If you hold your ground you may be hassled but if it goes longer than the allowed time under Terry v. OHIO you will win a law suit period! This is the only way these type of folks seem to learn. If an officer was polite and asked your wife to strip because he thinks she may be hiding coconuts under her shirt would you take it off for him? NO! How is this any different? If you are not breaking any laws then it's none of his damned business who you are, where you are going etc... Now be advised that in the past very polite officers have asked for IDs / CPLs and been giving them by legally gathered OCers. What did they do with that info? They wrote letters to local gun boards trying to get the CPLs of those individuals revoked. Rest assured there is a LEIN entry about your bicycle travels now in the system. 

LMAO!!!   Smuggling coconuts...  haha..   I can't argue with that logic... I can't say I'd have the balls just now to put the officer on the spot.. but I certainly agree that just because they are being polite about violating your rights doesn't mean that you should go along with it... 

I definatley agree.. that if he's an anti or just one of those officers that thinks you can only carry if you are COP...   then you can get yourself into some BS when/if they get your name and information...   

As they say.. once you get into the system...      (I know we had the talk about already being in the system...)   I try to stay out of it as much as I can.


I think this would be a point to remain VERY calm and VERY polite and state "I know you're just doing your job officer, and I completely respect that, however, I must respectfully decline your request for ID under the pretenses you have no reasonable suspicion to request it and I am not breaking any laws and open carry as you know is not a reason to stop and detain and ID" and ask if you are being detained and if he says no, haul ass.

[emt805]

I would not have shown I'd or cpl in this case. The officer admitted the only reason he was stopped was for him carrying openly. Ok you may all say he is operating a vehicle but where is the RAS for the stop? Cops cannot pull over every car following the law to see if it is registered or insured. The officer in this case did not have ANY RAS to stop a person lawful & legally riding his bike.

[CV67PAT]

"May I see your papers, please.

I'm sorry. Your papers are not in order.

You will have to come with me.

I am putting these handcuffs on you for your protection as well as mine.

Please don't resist. I am only doing my job."

OC on a bicycle has been hashed out repeatedly. A MSP letter of opinion has also been issued. A CPL is not required to OC on a bicycle. I would cit e a law that says you can do it, but just as there is no law requiring a permit to OC itself, none exists requiring a permit to OC on a bicycle.

As far as this stop is concerned, the officer knew he had no lawful basis to request ID, yet he did so nonetheless. To provide ID in light of this is... acknowledgement of servitude.

[dlgeorge]

Ok,  time for me to weigh in on this now.  It sounds like this thread started off as "I did the right thing",  then quickly reversed itself. 

You are right,  I should have held my ground and refused the ID.  This was my first stop by police, and I was a little nervous and essentially caught off guard.   I have learned a great deal from reading everyone's comments and I plan to continue riding my bike with my holstered gun openly on my hip.  The next encounter with Police will go differently, you can count on it.

As far as any database, I neither agree nor disagree that one exists.  I can only tell you that he looked at my ID very breifly and handed them back.  He didn't take them to his vehicle nor did he write anything down.  Unless he has a photographic memory or something, I will continue to assume he was telling the truth and only checking for the presence of a CPL.  I know now that even that seemingly innocent gesture was a violation of my rights, and like I said, the next time will be different.  That is why I come here guys,  to listen and learn.

Thank you all for your wisdom.

[CV67PAT]

Another thing to ponder...

Since there is no requirement to posess ID while riding a bicycle, what would have the rider done if he had none to produce?

[METL]

halfway off topic....   that NAzi guy in Inglorious Basterds sure was a polite and gentlemanly fellow...  right up till the point where he was telling the soldiers to murder everyone and when he pounced on that actress and killed her...      just sayin...

[Christian Patriot]

I have never had an LEO encounter but can imagine how nervous I might be and the nerves you were feeling. Regardless, at least you were polite. Good job! Now we both are educated for the next time!

[ocdetroit]

 +1 Carry On.

[scot623]

Good job. I've not shown ID, and shown ID. Either way works.