brief novi pd encounter

[ocdetroit]

Good addition. Carry On.

[redskin]

Am I right in thinking the officer had no legal right to ask for your credentials? Yes you were in your car, but he still needs RS to detain you, right?

No, you are off a little. Anyone can ask you for anything anytime they choose. Whether an officer of the law can demand something of you is a different story however. Sometimes theycan and sometimes they can't; it is up to you to know the difference if and when the time comes.

In this case, there was no legal authority to demand the document and accordingly, Kryptonian stated the officer "asked" to see it.

I guess I was just confirming the right to deny his request AND demand in this situation. But that is a good point to keep in mind, thank you. I agree that in many--maybe even most--cases it is much more appropriate to work with the officer. However, I never want to establish de facto law that lets officers stop us on their whim.

[CV67PAT]

While I am generally ignored by Bronson, his point is spot on.

It is the transitional period that presents the officer the opportunity to inquire. It is at this point that the statute tells us that if we are in possession of a concealed pistol or transporting a loaded pistol, we must provide identification and a CPL if the officer requests it. I would expect that if I were carrying concealed and an officer was able to discern that I had a concealed pistol, that officer would be acting proper to ask for my CPL.

So what is the difference if he sees a pistol in a vehicle, whether on the person or in the vehicle? None. The statute provides for the requirement to produce documents when carrying concealed or transporting a loaded pistol. That seems pretty explicit.

You can go back to ignoring me, Bronson.

As you were.

[Bronson]

You can go back to ignoring me, Bronson.

Did you guys hear something 

Bronson

[redskin]

So what is the difference if he sees a pistol in a vehicle, whether on the person or in the vehicle? None. The statute provides for the requirement to produce documents when carrying concealed or transporting a loaded pistol. That seems pretty explicit.

Forgive me if I am beating a dead horse, but I believe it was you that pointed out that this statement wasn't necessarily true. Transporting and concealing are two different things. You are required to disclose if concealing, but not if transporting...

Here, I think I have found the point in which we keep confusing each other:

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

I have interpreted this passage to indicate that a person is require to disclose his/her pistol in the instance the a pistol is concealed on their person or is concealed in their vehicle. I believe, and I may be wrong, that you have interpreted this passage to suggest that disclosure is required if the pistol is concealed on their person or in their vehicle, concealed or not.

At this point I'm so confused, I'm not sure what to think. thanks for enduring my inquiries, everybody.

[Big Gay Al]

Not just concealing, but if you are carrying the pistol on your person, concealed or not, or if it is within easy reach, then you are not transporting it.  Under that condition, you need a CPL.  And of course, you must disclose to the officer, if you are stopped.  On the other hand, if the pistol is unloaded and being transported in the manner prescribed by law, you do not have to mention it at all.

[Christian Patriot]

So then... Put simply, If whatever you are doing requires a certain  permit, an officer is within his right to request paperwork pertaining to the act.?
In this case having a gun in a car requires a CPL, so the LEO is within his/her right to request/demand to see your CPL. Just as carrying concealed requires a CPL, so if an LEO determines that you have a gun he/she may request/demand to see your permit for such.?
Daniel

[ocdetroit]

I would like to say other thing. If u do not have a CPl and you have a gun in a car, just do what the law says. 1. have the gun unloaded in the trunk ,in a gun case, and the ammo in the glove dept. This happen to me once before i had a CPL, i was at the airport just sitting in car waiting to pickup someone and the Wayne County LEO> pulled up to me and others befor me just checking plates. He got out and came up to my car an ask me to clear up something for him i said yes, he asked me do i have my Ruger on me. I said no you must be talking about my son same name ,i have no gun what so ever. He said thanks and went on his way. They know before they come to your car that you have a cpl or not. Hope this helped. Carry On  .

[redskin]

Not just concealing, but if you are carrying the pistol on your person, concealed or not, or if it is within easy reach, then you are not transporting it.  Under that condition, you need a CPL.  And of course, you must disclose to the officer, if you are stopped.  On the other hand, if the pistol is unloaded and being transported in the manner prescribed by law, you do not have to mention it at all.

Now that makes sense to me! Many thanks!

[autosurgeon]

No need for the ammo to be in the glove compartment it can be in the same case with the gun as long as the mag is out of the gun and the chamber is empty... or the cylinder is empty in the case of a revolver.

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

[METL]

I have heard that same thing...  "separate" can be interpreted in different manners...     I just toss the mag in my pocket or the cup holder.

[Big Gay Al]

So then... Put simply, If whatever you are doing requires a certain  permit, an officer is within his right to request paperwork pertaining to the act.?
In this case having a gun in a car requires a CPL, so the LEO is within his/her right to request/demand to see your CPL. Just as carrying concealed requires a CPL, so if an LEO determines that you have a gun he/she may request/demand to see your permit for such.?
Daniel

If you have a CPL, and you are carrying a pistol, and you are stopped by a LEO, you must disclose ASAP.  In other words, don't wait for them to ask.  IF you are not armed, there is no duty to disclose, but it is recommended you tell them anyway, since they will find out if/when they run your drivers license, and some have a tendency to get pissed off, if you don't tell them.  Even when you don't have to.  It will save YOU the inconvenience of having pissed off a LEO, which can save you all manner of other trouble.

[ocdetroit]

True that  Big Al. Carry On.

[kryptonian]

the premise of my inquiry was if the police already saw your weapon OC whats the point of disclosing to them if an unintended or intended (in my case) becomes a concealed situation?

[Ezerharden]

New here so I apologize ahad of time if I am overstepping my pay grade but as I understand it, in order to carry a weapon, concealed or open in a vehicle requires you have avalid CPL. My step-son and I recently attended an open carry event. I carried mine the whole time as I have a CPL, he locked his up as he is still waiting to get his (in the system). As a valid CPL holder I can carry open in a vehicle. If I am seen open carrying and get into a vehicle without unloading and locking my handgun up I am in violation of the law. So a LEO asking to verify my license that I am legally allowed to openly carry a sidearm in a vehicle is not surprising to me. They are just doing their jobs.

[CV67PAT]

the premise of my inquiry was if the police already saw your weapon OC whats the point of disclosing to them if an unintended or intended (in my case) becomes a concealed situation?

For no other reason than that the statute specifically states that you must. Sure he saw the OC part. But you were now in your car. That's the place where he can ask for it and you must comply.

For instance, when stopped in a vehicle you must immediately disclose. You do not have to produce the CPL. But if asked to, then you must.

So in your situation, he was asking for it. You had a statutory obligation to comply.

Outside the car OCing, nothing. Inside in possession of a loaded pistol, produce CPL upon request.

[METL]

New here so I apologize ahad of time if I am overstepping my pay grade but as I understand it, in order to carry a weapon, concealed or open in a vehicle requires you have avalid CPL. My step-son and I recently attended an open carry event. I carried mine the whole time as I have a CPL, he locked his up as he is still waiting to get his (in the system). As a valid CPL holder I can carry open in a vehicle. If I am seen open carrying and get into a vehicle without unloading and locking my handgun up I am in violation of the law. So a LEO asking to verify my license that I am legally allowed to openly carry a sidearm in a vehicle is not surprising to me. They are just doing their jobs.

Quick tip:    since you have a CPL, I believe you are allowed to be in possession of other people's weapons.  THerefore, your step-son could just give his piece to you for the rides...   Nothing says you can't have TWO guns with your CPL

[ocdetroit]

  Outstanding guys i think we all got it now. Also if you have some one else's gun it must be Reg. here in michigan. Then when you get out give it back to the Non CPL holder who's gun it is, Open Carry Safely.
 

[Golden Eagle]

For no other reason than that the statute specifically states that you must. Sure he saw the OC part. But you were now in your car. That's the place where he can ask for it and you must comply.

For instance, when stopped in a vehicle you must immediately disclose. You do not have to produce the CPL. But if asked to, then you must.

So in your situation, he was asking for it. You had a statutory obligation to comply.

Outside the car OCing, nothing. Inside in possession of a loaded pistol, produce CPL upon request.

What I see is the 2 laws; (1) is 750.227 that says you can't have a pistol in a vehicle with out being licensed. It's a law in and of its self and I don't see it making a OC'ed pistol a CC pistol any more than sitting in a booth in a restaurant.

(2) is 28.425f that says you must disclose if stopped. I have to assume it would be a legal stop. Just because the LEO knew there was a gun in the car was no more reason for a stop then making a stop after he legally turned onto the street to check for a drivers license.
 
Of course I'm not talking about making it a friendly encounter, I'm specifically talking law.

When I'm pulled over while OC'ing I do disclose. I do believe I could refuse to show my drivers license if the LEO were to say "I stopped you for having a NRA sticker on your car".(but only if I have my recorder running)

[CV67PAT]

For no other reason than that the statute specifically states that you must. Sure he saw the OC part. But you were now in your car. That's the place where he can ask for it and you must comply.

For instance, when stopped in a vehicle you must immediately disclose. You do not have to produce the CPL. But if asked to, then you must.

So in your situation, he was asking for it. You had a statutory obligation to comply.

Outside the car OCing, nothing. Inside in possession of a loaded pistol, produce CPL upon request.

What I see is the 2 laws; (1) is 750.227 that says you can't have a pistol in a vehicle with out being licensed. It's a law in and of its self and I don't see it making a OC'ed pistol a CC pistol any more than sitting in a booth in a restaurant.

(2) is 28.425f that says you must disclose if stopped. I have to assume it would be a legal stop. Just because the LEO knew there was a gun in the car was no more reason for a stop then making a stop after he legally turned onto the street to check for a drivers license.
 
Of course I'm not talking about making it a friendly encounter, I'm specifically talking law.

When I'm pulled over while OC'ing I do disclose. I do believe I could refuse to show my drivers license if the LEO were to say "I stopped you for having a NRA sticker on your car".(but only if I have my recorder running)

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.