brief novi pd encounter

[Big Gay Al]

Actually, 750.227 (2) states the following:

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle
operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the
person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner
inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

And 750.231a lists the exceptions to the above:

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence
except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

That implies that having a loaded pistol INSIDE a vehicle, on your person, or within easy reach is considered to be concealed by the state of Michigan.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once or twice. 

[Golden Eagle]

Actually, 750.227 (2) states the following:

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle
operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the
person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner
inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

And 750.231a lists the exceptions to the above:

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence
except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

That implies that having a loaded pistol INSIDE a vehicle, on your person, or within easy reach is considered to be concealed by the state of Michigan.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once or twice. 

About a week ago someone on line made this point that 750.227 doesn't change a OC'ed gun to a concealed gun in a vehicle, just illegal in the vehicle and that looks to be true to me. If my car is license and insured and I'm doing 10 over the speed limit I'm guilty of speeding but that doesn't make my plate illegal.

So if a pistol isn't concealed you shouldn't (technically) need to disclose.
do you follow me?

[Big Gay Al]

Actually, 750.227 (2) states the following:

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle
operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the
person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner
inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

And 750.231a lists the exceptions to the above:

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence
except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

That implies that having a loaded pistol INSIDE a vehicle, on your person, or within easy reach is considered to be concealed by the state of Michigan.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once or twice. 

About a week ago someone on line made this point that 750.227 doesn't change a OC'ed gun to a concealed gun in a vehicle, just illegal in the vehicle and that looks to be true to me. If my car is license and insured and I'm doing 10 over the speed limit I'm guilty of speeding but that doesn't make my plate illegal.

So if a pistol isn't concealed you shouldn't (technically) need to disclose.
do you follow me?

Oh, I know what you're saying, but if you read 750.227 (2) is says "or whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle...."  I'm pretty sure the "or otherwise" covers OC.  And I'd be more than willing to bet that there's a case out there somewhere that establishes that carrying in a vehicle is considered concealed, whether or not the pistol is concealed on your person.  And I'd also be willing to say, most lawyers will tell you, if you need a CONCEALED pistol license to carry in a vehicle, the state considers that pistol to be concealed, whether you do or not.

In any event, if you do have a CPL, and you happen to get stopped, try not disclosing if you're OCing, and see how long it takes before you have a whole new set of problems.  Your CPL is tied to your DL, and assuming they run your DL, they're gonna find out.  I guess then you can be the test case for all of us.  Not that I'd wish that on anyone. 

In any event, good luck!

[CV67PAT]

BGA is correct with the "or otherwise". And it is also that since the pistol was visible in the OP's interaction, and since the officer requested the CPL before the OP could disclose, the OP was obligated by statute to produce the CPL and DL.

The often used analogy of driving and being asked for a license for no reason is not applicable because there is a statutory requirement to produce the documents whenever asked to by a LEO while CC or in a vehicle with a loaded pistol.

[Golden Eagle]

OK you guys are ganging up on me but I'm not giving up!

Oh, I know what you're saying, but if you read 750.227 (2) is says "or whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle...."  I'm pretty sure the "or otherwise" covers OC.  And I'd be more than willing to bet that there's a case out there somewhere that establishes that carrying in a vehicle is considered concealed, whether or not the pistol is concealed on your person.  And I'd also be willing to say, most lawyers will tell you, if you need a CONCEALED pistol license to carry in a vehicle, the state considers that pistol to be concealed, whether you do or not.

Yes I agree too that means OC. No where in this law does it make it concealed. There is nothing in 750.227 about disclosing.

In any event, if you do have a CPL, and you happen to get stopped, try not disclosing if you're OCing, and see how long it takes before you have a whole new set of problems.  Your CPL is tied to your DL, and assuming they run your DL, they're gonna find out.  I guess then you can be the test case for all of us.  Not that I'd wish that on anyone. 

In any event, good luck!

Show me the part of the law that says you must disclose in a car.

...and I'll say it again I will disclose in this situation but if I'm driving OC and forget to disclose this would be my defence.

BGA is correct with the "or otherwise". And it is also that since the pistol was visible in the OP's interaction, and since the officer requested the CPL before the OP could disclose, the OP was obligated by statute to produce the CPL and DL.

What statute? A person with a CPL doesn't need to disclose by law when OCing.

The often used analogy of driving and being asked for a license for no reason is not applicable because there is a statutory requirement to produce the documents whenever asked to by a LEO while CC or in a vehicle with a loaded pistol.

You just said  "or otherwise" means OC... we don't need to disclose while OC.

[bigjohn860]

Show me the part of the law that says you must disclose in a car.

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(4htwlx4511yhh145s2s1g4m2))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425f

[CV67PAT]

No we're not ganging up on you. We are trying to point out the intricacies of the statutes. I'll refrain from further input, to avoid the perception of gang mentality.

[Golden Eagle]

Show me the part of the law that says you must disclose in a car.

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(4htwlx4511yhh145s2s1g4m2))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425f

Good question.  Welcome!
I'm not sure what CV67PAT believes the "or" means. (pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle)

I believe that's a moot point because he is over looking the words "and".

and who is carrying a concealed pistol and

He is also over looking the word "concealed".

[Golden Eagle]

No we're not ganging up on you. We are trying to point out the intricacies of the statutes. I'll refrain from further input, to avoid the perception of gang mentality.

I'm OK with it. This is fun.

If I'm open carrying in pistol free zone is my pistol considered concealed by the law?

[CV67PAT]

No we're not ganging up on you. We are trying to point out the intricacies of the statutes. I'll refrain from further input, to avoid the perception of gang mentality.

I'm OK with it. This is fun.

If I'm open carrying in pistol free zone is my pistol considered concealed by the law?

I'm remaining mute because my replies are moot.

[Big Gay Al]

First, the law says that if you're carrying a concealed weapon, and you are stopped by law enforcement, you must disclose, without them asking, ASAP.  If you're walking, and CCing, this applies.  If you're driving and CCing or OCing, this applies as Michigan considers the weapon concealed when you're inside a vehicle.  i.e., the weapon is not in plain sight.  This part should be evident from the name of the section covering weapons in vehicles, i.e., "750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty." 

There's never a lawyer around when you want one, and when you don't want one, they fall out of the sky.

[Big Gay Al]

No we're not ganging up on you. We are trying to point out the intricacies of the statutes. I'll refrain from further input, to avoid the perception of gang mentality.

I'm OK with it. This is fun.

If I'm open carrying in pistol free zone is my pistol considered concealed by the law?

No, but it's already been stated you need  a CPL to carry in a PFZ, and so far, it's generally accepted that if asked to see your CPL, you should comply, unless you feel like going to jail.  But the difference is, in a PFZ, if Ocing, your pistol is in plain sight.  In a vehicle, not so much, unless of course you're wearing a shoulder holster.  And I still bet you the LEO is gonna want to see your CPL.

[Big Gay Al]

Well, I found a lawyer, had to go to another site to do so, but I found one.

From MCRGO's FAQ/Ask the Lawyer page:

Q:    I don't have a CCW. How can I legally transport a pistol in a motor vehicle?

A:    The law changed in March of 2002 from the old "to and from" rules. You may now transport a pistol for any lawful purpose as long as it is stored correctly. The new law defines "lawful purpose" to include the old "to and from" rules but those are only examples of lawful purposes and do not exclude other lawful purposes. Remember, a pistol carried in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, except under the circumstances below where there is no trunk, will be considered concealed, whether it is in plain view or not. The proper way to transport a pistol in a vehicle if you do not hold a CPL permit....

So, you don't have to take Pat's or my word for it.  Do as you will. 

[ocdetroit]

  Thanks Big Al, I feel that's why we (MOC) put out a hand booklet. New folks please read. It will help alot. Also check out some of the other treads that are on this site. Carry On Safely.

[Golden Eagle]

Thanks Big Al, I feel that's why we (MOC) put out a hand booklet. New folks please read. It will help alot. Also check out some of the other treads that are on this site. Carry On Safely.

I thought this was a good discussion like this one I found by Bronson a while back. http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,235.0.html


So far I think it's realy the meaning of "and" and "or".
Since I only have 12 posts I probably do appear to be just blowing smoke. 

[Big Gay Al]

Sometimes, the difference between "and" and "or" is the difference between going home, and going to jail. 

Anyone I've ever talked with, in any manner of authority is of the opinion, that any firearm carried inside a vehicle is concealed, whether it's covered or not.  It is too bad we don't have some of the laws I've seen from the South.  Some southern states' laws are written in such a way that your vehicle is considered an extension of your home, so that no permit/license is needed to have a gun in your vehicle.  Alas, that is not the case here.

[ocdetroit]

That's right my friend from Ga. says the same.

[autosurgeon]

Not to confuse the issue further... but oc in a car is NOT cc but it does require a cpl as any loaded pistol in a car does. It technically is carrying otherwise... which still requires a cpl and therefor in my opinion requires one to disclose as any carry form that requires a cpl in my opinion requires one to disclose....just to be on the safe side I would even do so if detained in a pfz while ocing under the authority of my cpl.

There you have it my 98 cents worth!

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

[Big Gay Al]

Not to confuse the issue further... but oc in a car is NOT cc but it does require a cpl as any loaded pistol in a car does. It technically is carrying otherwise... which still requires a cpl and therefor in my opinion requires one to disclose as any carry form that requires a cpl in my opinion requires one to disclose....just to be on the safe side I would even do so if detained in a pfz while ocing under the authority of my cpl.

There you have it my 98 cents worth!

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

Works for me! 

[ocdetroit]

I'm Good with that. Carry On