Fred Russ Forest Park - "No Firearms" signs

[redskin]

So I went out yesterday with the girlfriend and her 21 month old boy to do some Geocaching and hiking in one of my favorite Cass County Parks, Fred Russ Forest Park, also known as Newton Woods. We had a blast, found 3 caches, and did a couple hours worth of hiking and playing in the really nice park. On the way out, however, I drove over to the second entrance and parking area and I saw a big red sign I couldn't resist taking a picture of:



And you can see in the distance in that photo an additional sign, which I also took a closer picture of:



There were also two informational papers posted on a bulletin board I took pictures of, but I won't post them. If you want to view those, go here and here.

I did some research, and it looks like between October and January the park is open to hunters for bowhunting only. Now, if you have that knowledge I guess it can be inferred that the signs really only apply to permitted hunters during hunting season, which is an issue unto itself. However, I think the signs are fairly misleading and can easily be mistaken to apply to all firearms in all situations (especially since the second sign was so far behind the first and not easy to see.

So my question is, is this something we should ignore or should we request that the signs be taken down? Or at least replaced with something clearer? I'm close friends or well-acquainted with 13 of the 15 county commissioners down here, and I feel like most of them would be favorable to our position on this one.

[smellslikemichigan]

It was good of you to take pictures.  I would say that you should just shoot an email to the county commissioners, I would imagine they would be open to modifying to signs to something that more accurately reflects what they are trying to convey.  I think they are just trying to make it clear that there is no firearm hunting allowed.

[scot623]

I put a call into the parks director, Scott Weiman...hopefully he calls back soon. It's my guess they have no idea what the law is in regards to these signs or guns being allowed in the parks.

[scot623]

The director called me back and told the park is actually Michigan State University property. I'd need some input from people smarter than me on where the laws falls on that.


 

[redskin]

Well, you can certainly carry a gun on MSU property, and I highly doubt MSU would ban firearms anywhere or for any reason, but I think this bears more investigation. I have to wonder how much my county spends on maintaining the park and I'd be pretty upset if it was a substantial amount and I was still not allowed to have a gun there.

[CV67PAT]

Well, you can certainly carry a gun on MSU property, and I highly doubt MSU would ban firearms anywhere or for any reason, but I think this bears more investigation. I have to wonder how much my county spends on maintaining the park and I'd be pretty upset if it was a substantial amount and I was still not allowed to have a gun there.

U of M, being exempt from pre-emption, can ban firearms on all of its owned and leased properties. And it does ban firearms on all of that property. I know of no reason that MSU, being exempt from pre-emption, would not also.

[redskin]

Well, you can certainly carry a gun on MSU property, and I highly doubt MSU would ban firearms anywhere or for any reason, but I think this bears more investigation. I have to wonder how much my county spends on maintaining the park and I'd be pretty upset if it was a substantial amount and I was still not allowed to have a gun there.

U of M, being exempt from pre-emption, can ban firearms on all of its owned and leased properties. And it does ban firearms on all of that property. I know of no reason that MSU, being exempt from pre-emption, would not also.

I can think of plenty of reasons... A healthy respect for the Second Amendment being one of them. A desire to avoid legislating life for non-students being another. If I remember right, MSU is one of the campuses that allows non-students to carry. I've carried there myself.

[TheQ]

MSU has a strict ordinance against firearms on university property. Never assume...

http://trustees.msu.edu/ordinances/ordinances_sec18.html

This ordinance is not preempted. Cite: MCL 123.1101

[TheQ]

Also, I've spoke to MSU public safety. They will enforce this on any person on campus property other than those passing through by car on public road that happens to be on campus.

[CV67PAT]

Also, I've spoke to MSU public safety. They will enforce this on any person on campus property other than those passing through by car on public road that happens to be on campus.

Again, simply to clarify, this also includes ALL property owned and LEASED by the universities.

[Michhunter]

I am not sure of the reason they do such thing but I do know that there are two parks not far from my house that are also archery  hunting as well. Maybe we should look into them as well case as far as I van see being there a few times there should be no reason for not having firearms in the parks.

[TheQ]

Also, I've spoke to MSU public safety. They will enforce this on any person on campus property other than those passing through by car on public road that happens to be on campus.

Again, simply to clarify, this also includes ALL property owned and LEASED by the universities.

It's a bit weird for me to say this....

^^^^^^^what Pat said^^^^^^^

[redskin]

I am not sure of the reason they do such thing but I do know that there are two parks not far from my house that are also archery  hunting as well. Maybe we should look into them as well case as far as I van see being there a few times there should be no reason for not having firearms in the parks.

I would look into them. For a park like this, that serves no clear educational function, and is open to the public for hunting and recreation, and, to my knowledge, is maintained by the county using my tax dollars; to be banning firearms is ridiculous. I'm going to FOIA the county on this park and its maintenance and any contracts the county might have with MSU. Assuming I confirm my belief that the county is paying to maintain it, I'll be going to my County Commission asking why they allow it.

[venator]

MSU has a strict ordinance against firearms on university property. Never assume...

http://trustees.msu.edu/ordinances/ordinances_sec18.html

This ordinance is not preempted. Cite: MCL 123.1101

MSU allows firearms, they follow state law.  This was changed recently so the park signs may be old, and staff may not be aware.

From their policy:

.01 Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms, no person shall possess any firearm or weapon anywhere upon property governed by the Board. Persons residing on property governed by the Board shall store any and all firearms and weapons with the Department of Police and Public Safety.

[autosurgeon]

What Ven said! This was changed last year. Also Redskin I would be glad to help you with this if you need it as I used to frequent this park when I was younger and may feel the need in the future when out and about on the motorcycle!

[redskin]

What Ven said! This was changed last year. Also Redskin I would be glad to help you with this if you need it as I used to frequent this park when I was younger and may feel the need in the future when out and about on the motorcycle!

I was sure I had heard you say the same thing about MSU at the recent seminar, and I carried at MSU for a convention, but I wasn't confident enough to contradict the more experienced. :/ Thanks for the info.

I'll update you on the information I get from the county and I'm going to have a conversation with some of my closer friends on the County Commission. Hopefully we can figure this out without causing a stir for anybody.

[TheQ]

MSU has a strict ordinance against firearms on university property. Never assume...

http://trustees.msu.edu/ordinances/ordinances_sec18.html

This ordinance is not preempted. Cite: MCL 123.1101

MSU allows firearms, they follow state law.  This was changed recently so the park signs may be old, and staff may not be aware.

From their policy:

.01 Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms, no person shall possess any firearm or weapon anywhere upon property governed by the Board. Persons residing on property governed by the Board shall store any and all firearms and weapons with the Department of Police and Public Safety.

I called MSU public safety and reviewed that exact wording with them 6 months ago. The Sargent (leader) on the first shift duty told me it'd be enforced against ANYONE on campus with a gun, regardless of CPL -- unless said person was on --say Mt. Hope -- and was just passing through campus.

If you feel otherwise, I suggest you call MSU public safety and discuss it with them. I was also told if you were visiting campus and you kept it locked in your trunk, you'd be OK.

[autosurgeon]

Just BC MSU campus police say they will enforce something does not mean that it is right we all know about asking the police about laws.

And I think the new MSU ordinance is pretty clear that state law is to be followed. Finally there is NO MSU campus police in Cass County.

[redskin]

Just BC MSU campus police say they will enforce something does not mean that it is right we all know about asking the police about laws.

And I think the new MSU ordinance is pretty clear that state law is to be followed. Finally there is NO MSU campus police in Cass County.

Thats really the meat of it, here. How does this apply to me in Cass County, especially since Cass County dollars could be pouring into this place.

[venator]

I can contact the MSU Police Chief via MOC email for an "official" comment.  Can someone get the MSU chiefs email, I can't seem to find it.

[autosurgeon]

I can contact the MSU Police Chief via MOC email for an "official" comment.  Can someone get the MSU chiefs email, I can't seem to find it.

Email Sent with Chief Dunlap's email address.

[redskin]

So I went out to that park again recently for more Geocaching fun, and I found something new:



This sign was definitely not up the last time I was there, so in between my original posting and this one somebody went out and put even more of these up. At least two from what I could see.

I put a request in with the County Clerk on records relating to the park, and I've got one of my good friends on the County Commission poking around with it too. Did anybody else get anywhere on it?

[scot623]

someone out there should check the tax roles to verify the owner of the land/park.