Author Topic: riding a bicycle  (Read 13798 times)

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Offline Michhunter

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riding a bicycle
« on: May 11, 2011, 10:20:29 AM »
has anyone found out more information on riding a bicycle do you need a cpl?

Offline CrossPistols

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 07:09:24 PM »
It has been debated before.  I believe by the letter of the official Un-Constitutional Law it is illegal with out a CPL. Although I have read the U.S. Constitution, and the state constitution, and no where does it mention that it is illegal to defend yourself on a bike. further more I am at a point where I don't give a good gosh dang about whether a cop or any other Govt. official thinks walking with a gun is ok but riding a bike is not. I can only say that it is in your hands to know the Law. I personally ride a bike a lot with out a CPL, if a cop thinks the world is less safe with me on a bike as opposed to walking well then Arrest me...  Just saying.
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Offline ocdetroit

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 09:40:00 PM »
Wow I was thinking the same thing, It's almost like open carrying without ever having a CPL. The feeling within ones self that is. Great Carry On.
Open carry in Detroit
With both of them.

Offline emt805

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 01:05:51 AM »
so if it is illegal to ride a bike without a cpl then it must also be illegal to carry on a skate board, or roller skates without a cpl?

Offline Bronson

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 07:06:01 AM »
so if it is illegal to ride a bike without a cpl then it must also be illegal to carry on a skate board, or roller skates without a cpl?

My take on it is this.

I don't think it's illegal to carry while riding a bike without a CPL but, I think the law is vague enough that an over zealous officer or prosecutor could try to weasel an arrest or conviction out of it.  Even if you were to win what an expensive pain in the ass it would be.

The law needs to be amended for clarity or better yet deleted off the books completely.

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline Michhunter

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 10:48:20 AM »
Well guys I guess I will find out soon enough I have sent an e-mail to the chief of my LPD I will see what he says about it. I will let every one know what he says about it.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 11:20:59 AM »
Should make for interesting reading and discussion. Police responses always are, as they are generally just an opinion not based on statutes.
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Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 01:21:08 PM »
Quote from: Bronson
My take on it is this.

I don't think it's illegal to carry while riding a bike without a CPL but, I think the law is vague enough that an over zealous officer or prosecutor could try to weasel an arrest or conviction out of it.  Even if you were to win what an expensive pain in the ass it would be.

The law needs to be amended for clarity or better yet deleted off the books completely.
Agreed well said.

My three specifics when arrested with out a CPL:

1 How can you or your gun be in a bicycle? (750.227)

2 Would a jury say a child on a bicycle is driving a vehicle? (257.4)

3 The law is against the person, without a license to carry the pistol. You have a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or transport pistol;. (28.422)

I have had 2 friends who at different times received speeding tickets (down hill) and the judges asked "This wasn't a motorcycle?" and threw out the charges. I think for this reason most LEO's don't consider bicycles vehicles.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 01:27:49 PM by Golden Eagle »
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Spec

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 03:07:44 PM »
You could go as far to say that OCing on a quad or snowmobile is not concealed... but since it has a motor you need a cpl. Does a bike have a motor? not the kind I ride.

Offline ocdetroit

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 06:05:22 PM »
 :D ;D ;) Mine either. Carry On
Open carry in Detroit
With both of them.

Offline BTAvery

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 09:33:43 AM »
Quote from: Bronson
My take on it is this.

I don't think it's illegal to carry while riding a bike without a CPL but, I think the law is vague enough that an over zealous officer or prosecutor could try to weasel an arrest or conviction out of it.  Even if you were to win what an expensive pain in the ass it would be.

The law needs to be amended for clarity or better yet deleted off the books completely.
Agreed well said.

My three specifics when arrested with out a CPL:

1 How can you or your gun be in a bicycle? (750.227)

2 Would a jury say a child on a bicycle is driving a vehicle? (257.4)

3 The law is against the person, without a license to carry the pistol. You have a License to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or transport pistol;. (28.422)

I have had 2 friends who at different times received speeding tickets (down hill) and the judges asked "This wasn't a motorcycle?" and threw out the charges. I think for this reason most LEO's don't consider bicycles vehicles.

On mackinaw island they give DUIs for riding a bike well drunk my friend got that and a speeding ticket for going down the big hill going to fast.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 10:58:35 AM »
This is understandable, given the unique vehicle restrictions of the island. The island may have local ordinances that specifically relate to non-motorized conveyances.

Also, OUIL laws are different regarding transportation methods. They also apply to conveyances such as horses, lawnmowers, and bicycles.
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Offline METL

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 02:40:32 PM »
Sort of off topic... but I once saw a video of a guy getting arrested for OUIL while on a scissor lift...     like this only motorized and mobile:





When the cop asked him to get off it, he instead raised the lift up to the top.... the cop had to call teh fire dept which took an axe to the hydralic line bringing the bozo back down to earth....       good for the lolz....


bigjohn860

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 09:01:22 PM »
MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 300 of 1949
257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
Sec. 79.

“Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or
may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by
human power



Offline Michhunter

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 09:47:15 PM »
Week here is what everyone has been waiting for.  The chief of my LPD says about this. "if with firearm is counseled in any way you need a cpl" so it sounds to me that if it is open then you don't need a cpl to ride a bicycle.

Offline Michhunter

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 09:50:29 PM »
Week here is what everyone has been waiting for.  The chief of my LPD says about this. "if with firearm is counseled in any way you need a cpl" so it sounds to me that if it is open then you don't need a cpl to ride a bicycle.
                      sorry it should say well at the start of this not week

Offline Bronson

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Re: riding a bicycle
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 11:09:52 PM »
MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 300 of 1949
257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
Sec. 79.

“Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or
may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by
human power


The problem is that MCL 750.227 doesn't define "vehicle" and it doesn't reference another law, appellate court decision, or other source for a definition.  It simply says no carry "whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person....without a license to carry the pistol."  Unfortunately MCL 750.222 which lists pertinent definitions for the entire Firearms section of the Michigan Penal Code also does not give a definition for "vehicle."

Without a definition within the law a court would look to other sources for a definition.  First would most likely be appellate court decisions, then other laws, and then a dictionary.  I've been told by lawyers that the source used will probably be the one that helps the legal counsel's case the most.  The challenge is to get the court/jury to accept your definition over the one the other lawyer is presenting.

Best case scenario the court is convinced to accept the definitions already in place under the Michigan Vehicle Code, worst case they are convinced to go with a dictionary defintion of a vehicle which could be anything used to move people or goods from one place to another.

It's a badly written, vague law fraught with opportunities for abuse and/or confusion.

Oh, and as to the idea that the MI License to Purchase/Possess could exempt us from .227 Big Gay Al had posted something that I had forgotten about...MCL 750.231a which gives the exemptions to .227.

Quote
(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

So as far as the State is concerned the LTP/P is NOT a valid license in regards to allowing loaded, accessible carry in a vehicle, it must be a Concealed Pistol License.

Bronson
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 11:17:07 PM by Bronson »
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine