Author Topic: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11  (Read 11906 times)

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Offline eflint49

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OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« on: September 11, 2011, 05:10:53 PM »
I was designated driver for my group at the wine tasting tent at Paw Paw Wine and Harvest Fest in Van Buren County.  I have a CPL so I was able to legally open carry in this area.  I was followed into the gate by Van Buren County Reserve Officer Bob Hale.  He was on his cell phone for about 5 minutes before approaching me with a handshake, telling me that because the main purpose of the event was to serve alcohol I could not legally carry.  Upon first opportunity I notified him that I was a CPL holder and I could legally open carry in this setting.  He again reiterated that the sole purpose of the event was to sell alcohol and he asked that I take the pistol to my car.  I respectfully told him that I was confident that I was within my legal rights to carry, but I didn't want to cause a scene so I agreed to walk out, and he followed me.  As soon as we got out of the tent area he asked that I stop again and show him my ID and CPL.  Because I was open carrying under the authority of my CPL, I happily passed over the two documents.  He jotted down my name and permit number and allowed me to walk alone out to my car a block away to secure my pistol.  I returned to the tent, finished what I was there for, ate some grub from "Q-It-Up", and left with my group.

My audio recorder was on the whole time but the noise inside the wine tasting area, where the meat of our conversation happened, completely drowns out the discussion.  I have him clearly ID'ing me and asking for my CPL, which he was allowed to do in that environment, but I didn't clearly record him demanding that I secure the pistol in my car.

I would like to send a letter to the Sheriff's Department regarding this issue, can anybody help steer me in the right direction?  I don't want to stir up a ruckus, but I feel that it's wrong to disarm a law-abiding citizen, and they should hear that.

Offline eflint49

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2011, 05:22:41 PM »
It's also important that I add, this was my first time in 18 months being stopped while carrying. I was much less nervous than I would have expected. Thanks to Michigan Gun Owners and Michigan Open Carry I was confident that I was legally carrying, and I knew what to expect from this type of stop.

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 02:04:23 AM »
A point of information, I believe a reserve/auxiliary officer has no more arrest power than you or I. In other words they can only arrest another citizen for an observed/witnessed felony. Since you had committed no crime, I would file a complaint with his chief & and the chief of the regular Co. department as well. Any malpractice of an auxiliary officer is covered under the municipalities/counties insurance. Your rights were violated.   >:( Filling a complaint may stop this from happening again to other legal OCers. If you take it a step further and file a 1983 Federal law suit I'm sure Bob Hale will think twice before stripping another citizen(s) of their rights to self protection. :o
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
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Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 02:15:49 AM »
Quote
I would like to send a letter to the Sheriff's Department regarding this issue, can anybody help steer me in the right direction?  I don't want to stir up a ruckus, but I feel that it's wrong to disarm a law-abiding citizen, and they should hear that.[QUOTE/]

There are many here with experience in that department. I suggest sending a PM to Master Control or Venator.
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline Michhunter

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 08:35:16 AM »
eflint you are just going to have to wait till one of them get on and see your post. Because you can't PM if you are not a paid member.

Offline eflint49

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 01:00:58 PM »
If somebody could PM them for me I would greatly appreciate it.  I would like to know who I should contact at the department and what means of contact will get the best results.  Letter/Phone Call/Office Visit/E-Mail/All Three?

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »
If somebody could PM them for me I would greatly appreciate it.  I would like to know who I should contact at the department and what means of contact will get the best results.  Letter/Phone Call/Office Visit/E-Mail/All Three?

Sorry guys -  forgot that most here aren't paid members, [we hope that changes ;)] I will forward the link to them they are both very good guys. :D

PM - Sent, but they won't be able to respond to you directly.....

eflint49 - I suggest you sign up for a FREE membership at OCDO with the same screen name. They are members there also Venator & Master Control that way they can send you info, via PMs etc...
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?106-Michigan

- G9OS 8)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 03:55:21 PM by Glock9mmOldStyle »
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline venator

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 08:13:44 AM »
If somebody could PM them for me I would greatly appreciate it.  I would like to know who I should contact at the department and what means of contact will get the best results.  Letter/Phone Call/Office Visit/E-Mail/All Three?

I can be reached at bjeffs@miopencarry.org
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Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 05:47:19 PM »
I can be reached at rransom@miopencarry.org

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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline gryphon

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 09:26:04 PM »
A point of information, I believe a reserve/auxiliary officer has no more arrest power than you or I.
Are you sure?  Pretty sure reserve officers, like Reserve Deputy Sheriffs, do.  I know one in Tennessee.  He arrests people all the time.

Offline drtodd

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Re: Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 10:05:32 PM »
A point of information, I believe a reserve/auxiliary officer has no more arrest power than you or I.
Are you sure?  Pretty sure reserve officers, like Reserve Deputy Sheriffs, do.  I know one in Tennessee.  He arrests people all the time.

Not in MI...
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline onnie0047@gmail.com

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 10:24:44 PM »
in part from AG opinion 7101

Thus, a reserve police officer with limited law enforcement authority would not qualify as a "peace officer" under subsection 2 of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.
I am not a Cop, nor a Lawyer, not even a Medical Doctor, but I did once play a Klingon at Universal Studios!

Offline gryphon

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2011, 08:22:35 PM »
Interesting, I did not know that. So, if a reserve officer tells you to do something, you do not have to obey?

Offline jeffsayers

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 01:03:39 PM »
Interesting, I did not know that. So, if a reserve officer tells you to do something, you do not have to obey?

You have no obligation to obey an unlawful order from ANYONE.

A lawful request/order from a reserve officer though, well let's just say you might really want to think about if it's worth stirring up the dung. Remember that respect is a two-way street...
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I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline venator

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Re: OC - Wine and Harvest - Paw Paw, MI - 9/11/11
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 03:13:19 PM »
True for the most part. Some things to ponder.  Be careful as some reserve officers and special deputies may be MCOLES certified and have full police powers.  Below are a few things to review.  Check out the MML newsletter on this subject.

453.371 Fair grounds; marshals and deputies, police powers.
Sec. 1.
That all persons duly appointed or chosen as marshals, deputy marshals, or policemen, by the proper officers of any of the agricultural or horticultural societies of this state, and designated by appropriate badges, shall, as such marshals and policemen during the days of the fairs or exhibitions held by any of said societies be vested with the police powers of special constables in the township, village, or city in which such fairs or exhibitions are held.

History: 1861, Act 220, Eff. June 15, 1861 ;-- CL 1871, 2177 ;-- Am. 1879, Act 162, Eff. Aug. 30, 1879 ;-- How. 2325 ;-- CL 1897, 5973 ;-- CL 1915, 7851 ;-- CL 1929, 10252 ;-- CL 1948, 453.371

51.70 Deputy sheriffs; appointment; revocation; special deputies; responsibility for acts, defaults, and misconduct; bond.
Sec. 70.
Each sheriff may appoint 1 or more deputy sheriffs at the sheriff's pleasure, and may revoke those appointments at any time. Persons may also be deputed by a sheriff, by an instrument in writing, to do particular acts, who shall be known as special deputies and each sheriff may revoke those appointments at any time. A sheriff shall not be responsible for the acts, defaults, and misconduct in office of a deputy sheriff. The appointed deputy or deputies, other than special deputies, before entering upon the duties of office shall execute and file with the county clerk an official bond running to the people of this state in the amount of at least $2,500.00, if the county board of commissioners determines an individual bond is necessary, which bond shall be conditioned in the same manner as the bond required of the sheriff, and with sufficient sureties as the presiding judge of the circuit court for the county approves. A county by resolution of its county board of commissioners may pay premiums on the individual bond running to the people of this state in the amount of at least $2,500.00 as prescribed by the county board of commissioners. A bond required by this section shall be conditioned in the same manner as the bond required for the sheriff and have sufficient sureties.

http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/reserve_programs.pdf

Excerpt:

RESERVE OFFICER PROGRAMS -- Are You Doing It Right or, at
Least, Legally?
By Gene King, LEAF Coordinator

ISSUES OF THE LAW

Few Michigan statutes speak to the issue of reserve police officers, particularly to the ability of municipal entities to form or operate reserve units. A review of the law and observations of municipalities’ use of reserves raise the question, “Has the use of reserve units become a practice that the law does not support”?  If that is the case, then
either the laws must undergo change to meet the needs of the entities or the practice of the entities must change to meet the law.  Most of the regulatory information concerning the use of police reserves comes from interpretations of the law in opinion papers by the Michigan Attorney General. 

In Michigan, townships, fourth-class cities, villages, and  county sheriffs have the power to have law enforcement “reserves,” including special deputies or posses. The unicipalities may not regularly employ the reserves or swear and authorize them to be responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the general criminal laws of this state unless they have an MCOLES License. 

While performing their duties, the reserves must be under the direction of the sheriff or police department. Actually, the legislature wrote MCLA 28.609 (1), which is the waiver of certification requirement provision under MCOLES rules, to allow Mayors of fourth-class cities, Presidents of Villages, and Sheriffs to appoint temporary police officers or special deputies for handling emergencies or specific tasks. Years ago, the Michigan State Police also had the authority to create a stand-by force during emergencies.
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.