Question on laws pertaining to under 21

[neoexigent]

Hey guys, I've got a question I was hoping someone might be able to help with.

I've done some research on Michigan's gun laws, and as I understand it, an 18 yr. old can legally own a handgun if the gun is transferred to the individual by another individual, such as a family member, rather than being bought from a dealer.

As most of the research I've done suggests the above is true, my question is, would an 18 yr. old who legally owns a handgun only be allowed to transport the gun to and from a shooting range?

When I was looking at Michigan's laws, it almost looked like the only time such a person would be allowed transport the weapon would be if they were going directly to or from a shooting range.

Wondering if this is true, or if I was reading the law incorrectly?

Thanks everyone.

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Once the person (you?) obtains a Purchase Permit that is your license to possess and carry that pistol OPENLY. Anyone who meets the requirements no felonies or certain misdemeanors and 18yrs or above in age can obtain a purchase permit once you pass a 10 question test. HINT you must report a stolen pistol within 5days to the police Without a CPL there are many places that you cannot go while open carrying see MSP # 86 below for the cliff notes version -> Banks, schools,  {MCL sect. 28} until you can  obtain a CPL later. Read section 28.422 & 750.234 to see the difference between PP & CPL.
Use this link for firearms laws from MSP site http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

MSP legal update #86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

Handy pocket cards (printable) to keep you or whoever this is about out of trouble
http://web.me.com/joshtish/Offlimits_Front.pdf    [Shows places off limits without CPL] *Note you cannot legally even park on the property of a place that has a liquor license this means krogers, Meijers etc... if you have your gun in transport mode park on the nearest public street. (I know MI laws are crazy).
http://web.me.com/joshtish/Offlimits_Back.pdf [Shows places off limits with CPL]

Now to make things even goofier an 18yr. old can own a pistol and carry it but legally cannot buy handgun ammunition? So that becomes a challenge for them.  That should keep you busy for a while

Good luck and have fun & be safe. Know the laws inside out before you open carry.

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Sorry double tap 

[neoexigent]

Thanks for all the info. that's very helpful. However, I'm still not sure about my original question, which was: if I legally own the handgun, but do not have a CPL, (because I'm 18), where can I transport the gun?  Here's a section copied from the MSP site: 

"1.  If I do not have a CPL permit, may I transport my pistol in a motor vehicle? 

MCL 750.231a   A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. 

A 'lawful purpose' includes:

    * While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    * While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair.
    * While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business.
    * While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol.
    * While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale.
    * While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted.
    *
      While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance. "


As I read that, I, as an 18 yr old handgun owner, would not be allowed to transport the firearm in my vehicle just as a means of protection wherever I go, it would have to meet the certain criteria listed above, such as going to a shooting range, gun show, or to private property, etc.

One of my scenarios that I'm trying to pin down answers on is an overnight road trip to a certain well-known amusement park in Ohio, and whether or not it would be lawful for me to have a handgun stowed away in my vehicle during that trip. I have yet to look up Ohio's firearm laws though.

[Bronson]

MCL 750.231a   A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. 

A 'lawful purpose' includes:

Michigan Constitution, Article I section 6:

Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

According to our Constitution self defense is a lawful purpose.  Also the law states "lawful purpose includes."  The addition of the word "includes" indicates that the given list is a subset of a larger set.

Bronson, who is not a lawyer and is not giving legal advice.

[Christian Patriot]

Neo... No, you are not alowed in Michigan to have your gun in the passenger compartment of your car for self protection without a CPL. If you have a truck, you can have it in the passenger compartment unloaded and it MUST be inaccessible!
Daniel

[TheQ]

If you're talking about Cedar Point:

1. I'm not familiar with Ohio laws
2. There's probably better places to do your "OC teething" than another state in a huge amusement park.

[Bronson]

We need to clarify some defintions to continue this coversation.

When you say "transport" do you mean unloaded, cased, and in your trunk or do you mean loaded, in the passenger compartment and accessible?

Around these parts we typically use "transport" to mean the former and "carry" or "car carry" for the latter.

As has been stated, without a CPL there is no way for you to legally carry a loaded gun accessible to the passengers of the vehicle.

Bronson

[neoexigent]

Sorry guys, I should have been more specific. Yes, I am aware of the way that  MI law requires a non-CPL holder to transport a handgun (unloaded, cased, and inaccessible). So when I say transport, I'm talking about the way it's supposed to be done according to law.

Secondly, I'm not really talking about OC either. I don't really plan on OC'ing, unless some unusual situation came up, until I get my CPL.

So, when I'm asking these questions, I'm not asking about OC'ing, I'm simply wondering if it's lawful for me to have the handgun (legally and properly) stowed in my vehicle while going about my daily business. It sounds like I'd have to be extremely careful and selective though, since a lot of places I normally go (grocery stores, University parking lot, etc.) have liquor licenses, or are off-limits. 

I realize the trip to Cedar Point is a whole other issue, that would depend on Ohio's laws, I just thought someone might be familiar with the carry-over (or lack thereof) of firearm laws between the states.

[yance]

As far as just driving around with it in your trunk...bad idea.  There are a lot of places you CANNOT have a firearm if you do not have a CPL. 

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 234d.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

With emphasis added to (h)...anywhere, and I mean ANYWHERE that SELLS alcohol falls within that description.  Now to make it worse, there are places that are licensed in MI to sell alcohol but do not   even sell it.  So example, gas stations, walmart, meijer, any grocery store typically, most restaurants...all fall within (h) of that statute if you do not have a CPL.  So if youre interested in just having it in your car while you drive around town and run errands, not only does it not make any sense if youre never going to carry it, but you run the risk of violating this section many times over.

[TheQ]

Also, I haven't look at the list lately, but I think a violation of 750.234d will disqualify you from getting a CPL for a few years...

Oh look, it does.

Possessing a firearm on prohibited premises, MCL 750.234d

[yance]

So more or less for your intentions on transportation, its probably best that you leave it at home.  I honestly cant make sense of why you would just want to drive around with it in your trunk anyways.  You only have a few years to wait until you can get your CPL so just worry about transporting when youre going shooting.  Its a thin line and one thats too easily broken, so if I were you I wouldnt press my luck with it.  Leave it at home and do your running around.

[CV67PAT]

So more or less for your intentions on transportation, its probably best that you leave it at home.  I honestly cant make sense of why you would just want to drive around with it in your trunk anyways.  You only have a few years to wait until you can get your CPL so just worry about transporting when youre going shooting.  Its a thin line and one thats too easily broken, so if I were you I wouldnt press my luck with it.  Leave it at home and do your running around.

You should leave your gun home also. I don't believe you have a good enough understanding of firearm laws to be transporting or possessing a firearm.

As Bronson has said, two distinctly different conditions are presented here. Transporting and possession.

A properly stowed and unloaded pistol is being transported. Federal transportation laws also apply under interstate transportation of firearms. So a firearm that is unloaded, separate from ammunition, in a container or case designed for the firearm, in the trunk is properly being transported. And it can be "transported" even in those places specified in 750.234d, because 750.234d specifically states "possession".

Possession on the other hand is carrying. Accessible in the passenger compartment of a vehicle is also possessing. So an unloaded gun in a case being carried is being "possessed."

Prior to the "lawful purpose" inclusion in the statute, the "transportation only to and from" was used to elicit a plea bargain from a more serious charge.

Take some time to learn the laws.

[scot623]

A lot of drug dealers get busted for possession when the dope is in the trunk...

I've always taught a gun in the trunk is in your possession. I'd love to be wrong.

[CV67PAT]

I am just going by terms used in the firearms statutes. Transporting and possession are not used interchangeably in any of those statutes.

I am not familiar with drug laws. No need to be.

[neoexigent]

So more or less for your intentions on transportation, its probably best that you leave it at home.  I honestly cant make sense of why you would just want to drive around with it in your trunk anyways.  You only have a few years to wait until you can get your CPL so just worry about transporting when youre going shooting.  Its a thin line and one thats too easily broken, so if I were you I wouldnt press my luck with it.  Leave it at home and do your running around.

Why drive around with it in your trunk? I can think of one good reason: the same reason anybody carries one on their hip...to have it in case it's needed. Granted, an unloaded and stowed away gun isn't easily or quickly accessible, but you never know when the crap is going to hit the fan. The chance that you may need it to protect yourself or loved ones is the reason that any law-abiding citizen transports or carries a handgun.

Unfortunately, it appears that MI law has very little room for me to do that currently, whether in a vehicle, or OCing. I guess at this point, the only practical usage I'd get from a handgun would be practicing at the range, not as a tool of self-defense. Guess I just have to wait a few more years.

I do appreciate all the answers and help though, I think I have a better understanding of the laws now.

[CV67PAT]

You can still OC, with some restrictions. Those restrictions are what I encourage you to learn and know. OC is the only way to lawfully possess between the ages of 18 and 21. At least you're considering carrying a real gun.

[yance]

and regardless of the definition of possession, I'm sure its not worth taking the risk.

[CV67PAT]

and regardless of the definition of possession, I'm sure its not worth taking the risk.

Definitions of terms within statutes have meaning. knowing these meanings is what allows us to conform to the laws and conduct ourselves lawfully.

maybe if you stay under a rock you will be safe. The rest of us will continue to take the risks for you. Once it's safe you can come out and join us.

[scot623]

Play nice.

[CV67PAT]

Many of us have taken the risks in order that others may follow in relative safety.

To discourage someone from participating in a lawful activity to provide safety for themselves and their loved ones is elitist.

Again, open carry is the only way that an 18 - 21 year old can lawfully possess a loaded pistol.

Words used in statutes carry specific meanings. Knowing them is what prevents being caught in a situation that will cause problems.

I have simply pointed out that the two terms, possess and transport, are used in different statutes to define different activities.

[yance]

Well I OC whenever possible.  Now for the purpose that he said, just driving around with it locked in his trunk he might as well leave it at home because it will serve the same purpose.  If he wants to go out and OC, then by all means get out and OC, he just needs to make sure hes aware of the laws such as 750.234d.  Because even in his trunk he has a very good potential of getting hit for possession if it comes into play during a stop.  Just as you are in possession of the vehicle you are in possession of the contents of the vehicle. 

and I'll make you a deal, I'll come out from under my rock if you get off your pedestal.    

Then maybe we can go OC together.

[CV67PAT]

Again, the statutes do not use the terms possession and transportation interchangeably. In fact in MCL 28.422 states:

"... a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol..."

750.234d specifies possession. Doesn't mention transportation.

Trolls don't reside on pedestals. 

[yance]

well since we can all agree that courts use definitions of words I'll throw this at you.

Definition of POSSESSION
1a : the act of having or taking into control b : control or occupancy of property without regard to ownership

oh and... from http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Constructive+Possession

Constructive Possession

Constructive possession is a legal theory used to extend possession to situations where a person has no hands-on custody of an object. Most courts say that constructive possession, also sometimes called "possession in law," exists where a person has knowledge of an object plus the ability to control the object, even if the person has no physical contact with it (United States v. Derose, 74 F.3d 1177 [11th Cir. 1996]).

Therefore yes...I would say you can be in violation of 750.234d by having "contructive possession" as defined above if the firearm is in the trunk of the vehicle and you are aware it is there while on the premesis of an entity described in 750.234d.  I wouldnt put it past a prosecutor to go for it either. 

Your argument to that?

 

[CV67PAT]

Wrong laws.

This is a discussion of firearm statutes of Michigan.

[yance]

I'm sorry that said united states v derose...doesnt federal law trump state law???

and nothing in there was a law other than michigan laws.  it was a legal definition which would apply to the possession of a firearm that is located in the trunk of a vehicle which you know is there.  Dont people, including yourself, say once its used in court its pretty much how it is.  It appears as though there is a court case attached to that in which it was quoted from. 

So, yes..you can be in possession of a firearm as described in the definition of constructive possession even if it is in your trunk because you know it is there and you can have access to it and the ability to take immediate possession.  and since 750.234d states "shall not possess," by having constructive possession you are in fact in possession of the firearm. 

Now in an attempt to not see this young mans CPL rights be taken away, its important he be aware of possibilities such as this that could cause him to lose his ability to obtain a CPL for several years because he wanted to store it in his trunk while he drove around taking care of business and stopped in the wrong parking lot.

[CV67PAT]

Constructive possession is a legal theory.

[yance]

one that has been used in a court case.

also it is held as a definition:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/constructive+possession

Noun 1. constructive possession - (law) having the power and intention to have and control property but without direct control or actual presence upon it

I have found a few other sites that cite that same definition and it being as a noun.  So its less of a theory than it is a means to describe a way a person can be in possession of an item without having direct possession of it, such as on their person.  So by definition, as stated above, by having it in the trunk you are in possession of it because you have the power and can hold the intention to have and control the property even though you are not in direct control of it at any given time.

[TheQ]

30-Luv

[CV67PAT]

You win. I bow down to you. I can't debate your kind of logic.

[yance]

we can still be friends

[CV67PAT]

Why? Trolls don't want friends.   

ETA: smiley

[yance]

I still accept you 

[Bronson]

As I understand it, constructive possession is one reason people go with a NFA trust for machine guns and silencers.  Without a trust only the named owner may be in possession of the NFA item.  If you are the named owner and your NFA item is in the safe that your wife knows the combo. to then she also has constructive possession of the NFA items.

Same thing with a spouse that has a felony.  While they may not possess a firearm that doesn't prevent their non-felon spouse from owning one but it must be stored in a manner that prevents the felon from having access to it or they will be in constructive possession.

So as far as the law is concerned you don't actually have to be holding the item to possess it.  You just have to be able to access the item.

Bronson

[CV67PAT]

By this logic then, a non-CPL holder is in possession of a loaded pistol when a CPL holder enters the car. Therefore they should never ride in a car with a CPL holder that has a loaded gun in there.

I hardly think that the legislature had intended this when the statutes were written. Especially when the statutes uses the terms "possess" and "transport" separately, specifically, and not interchangeably.

But what do I know? You guys seem to know a whole lot more about the law. I'm just a trigger happy psychopath.

[Bronson]

Oops, I should have clarified in my previous post that in both of those situations the allowed party is not present at the time.

NFA named spouse is not home + non-NFA spouse is home and has combo to the safe = constructive possession.

CPL holder leaves car with loaded pistol locked in safe under the seat + non-CPL holder in the car with knowledge of the gun & the keys to the underseat safe dangling from the ignition = constructive possession.

Again, just how I understand it.

Bronson

[CV67PAT]

That I agree with.

[yance]

According to the definitions I found it seems like if you have the ability to take control of it, and you know and can have the intention of taking control of it, then you are in "contructive possession" of it.  It seems like its possession of something, without physical possession of something, like having it in your pocket. 

So from my understanding Bronson your follow up post would be a correct example of constructive possession.

This turned into a pretty informative thread.

[CV67PAT]

According to the definitions I found it seems like if you have the ability to take control of it, and you know and can have the intention of taking control of it, then you are in "contructive possession" of it.  It seems like its possession of something, without physical possession of something, like having it in your pocket. 

So from my understanding Bronson your follow up post would be a correct example of constructive possession.

This turned into a pretty informative thread.

Explain why, as you understand it, the legislature chose to use the terms "possess" and "transport" and "carry" separately, specifically, and not interchangeably in enacting the Michigan firearm statutes.

[northofnowhere]

Hey guys, I've got a question I was hoping someone might be able to help with.

I've done some research on Michigan's gun laws, and as I understand it, an 18 yr. old can legally own a handgun if the gun is transferred to the individual by another individual, such as a family member, rather than being bought from a dealer.

As most of the research I've done suggests the above is true, my question is, would an 18 yr. old who legally owns a handgun only be allowed to transport the gun to and from a shooting range?

When I was looking at Michigan's laws, it almost looked like the only time such a person would be allowed transport the weapon would be if they were going directly to or from a shooting range.

Wondering if this is true, or if I was reading the law incorrectly?

Thanks everyone.

The op's question has been answered.  If you wish to begin a seperate conversation on another related topic, feel free.  I think we are at the thread hijack stage of the game and should stop to alleviate any confusions the origonal thread starter had.

[CV67PAT]

Hey guys, I've got a question I was hoping someone might be able to help with.

I've done some research on Michigan's gun laws, and as I understand it, an 18 yr. old can legally own a handgun if the gun is transferred to the individual by another individual, such as a family member, rather than being bought from a dealer.

As most of the research I've done suggests the above is true, my question is, would an 18 yr. old who legally owns a handgun only be allowed to transport the gun to and from a shooting range?

When I was looking at Michigan's laws, it almost looked like the only time such a person would be allowed transport the weapon would be if they were going directly to or from a shooting range.

Wondering if this is true, or if I was reading the law incorrectly?

Thanks everyone.

The op's question has been answered.  If you wish to begin a seperate conversation on another related topic, feel free.  I think we are at the thread hijack stage of the game and should stop to alleviate any confusions the origonal thread starter had.

Which post answered his transportation question with any definitive specificity?

[TheQ]

Just don't say anything about the gun in your trunk. Don't leave anything visible in the passenger compartment that would give rise to RAS, and if asked to consent to a search, refuse and "wash, rinse, repeat".

[northofnowhere]

You are right Pat, in an effort to clarify the guys question and answer, keep discussing.  My mistake.  Op, if you are still unsure, feel free to PM me, I am unsubscribing from this myself.

-north

[yance]

According to the definitions I found it seems like if you have the ability to take control of it, and you know and can have the intention of taking control of it, then you are in "contructive possession" of it.  It seems like its possession of something, without physical possession of something, like having it in your pocket. 

So from my understanding Bronson your follow up post would be a correct example of constructive possession.

This turned into a pretty informative thread.

Explain why, as you understand it, the legislature chose to use the terms "possess" and "transport" and "carry" separately, specifically, and not interchangeably in enacting the Michigan firearm statutes.

However I'm sure as an intelligent man you understand how the legal system can turn it around from "he was just transporting his gun as provided in *this section*" to make it "well your honor by having it in his car, the car in which he was in possession and control of, the defendant was in indirect possession of the firearm, as explained by constructive possession.  The defendant knowingly had the firearm in his vehicle while he was on the premises of such and such and having done so violated *this section* because the vehicle the firearm was in was in his possession and the defedant was aware of the firearm"

But like bronson said, dont say anything about it, dont have anything in your passenger compartment that would hint you have a firearm and if they ask to search say no. 

[yance]

I guess in an attempt to provide a clear answer to the OP, yes, under 750.231a you can transport a firearm by having it enclosed in a case designed for tranportation and in your trunk, unloaded.  However just be sure to stay off of the locations provided in 750.234d.  There is also a list of places in MI that are licensed under the MI liquor contral act, Im not at home so I dont have my links so maybe another member would be able to provide you with the link.

Just stay smart and you should be fine.

[TheQ]

You people better stop agreeing with Pat, his head swells!

[CV67PAT]

This is getting carried away.

This thread is done.

I'm through trolling it.

[CV67PAT]

Actually I do want to say just one more thing regarding this...

Federal law allows for the transportation of firearms across state lines. To paraphrase, they have to be unloaded, encased, and in the trunk. If this were to be construed as "possession" in any form (constructive or otherwise), all of us would be running the risk of arrest.

[yance]

I guess its how you look at it.  just driving through, transportation, doing something illegal like buying drugs youll be in possession.  The courts make it suit their needs.