Author Topic: Is it a rifle or is it a pistol (Read 14572 times)

bigbob · « **on:** December 09, 2011, 08:37:12 PM »

I ordered 2 keltec sub 2000's about January and one of them finally came in. The gun is 29 1/2'' long so it has to be registered as a pistol. Say after it is registered as a pistol I put a recoil pad on it, or a stock extension or by whatever mean make the gun over 30'', is it still a pistol in the laws eye? my assumption is that it does not matter it will always be a pistol if so registered but I can't legally have a loaded rifle in my car but can a pistol so just curious and wanted to clear this up. while you are reading ill throw this question out too. What is the minimum overall length for a shotgun? im sure i could figure that one out pretty easy on Google but its on topic kinda. thanks everyone for your thoughts.

TheQ · « **Reply #1 on:** December 09, 2011, 11:00:47 PM »

If you get no answer here you might get some interesting replies over at http://migunowners.org under the "Legal Begal" forum.

I've heard two different answers:
1. It may be unregistered.
2. Once. Pistol, always a pistol.

I Don't know about car carry once you've made it over 30"

Super Trucker · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2011, 01:01:20 PM »

My understanding is for a shot gun to be still considered a shotgun and not an AOW is that the barrel MUST be 18" and the entire length needs to be between 26" and 30". The 26" to 30" is a MI thing not federal, so keep that in mind if you travel to other states.

Since you are required to "inform" the popo that you have a weapon during a traffic stop for instance, it is a possibility that it could be measured and an issue develop if it is not under 30".

bigbob · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2011, 02:16:58 PM »

Thanks for your thoughts guys. Supertucker ur second paragraph is exactly what I am afraid of. I don't have any intention of making the gun longer than 29" right now but I was thinking about what would happen in the event I did and can't find the answer anywhere.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2011, 01:04:18 AM »

Quote from: Super Trucker on December 11, 2011, 01:01:20 PM

My understanding is for a shot gun to be still considered a shotgun and not an AOW is that the barrel MUST be 18" and the entire length needs to be between 26" and 30". The 26" to 30" is a MI thing not federal, so keep that in mind if you travel to other states.

Since you are required to "inform" the popo that you have a weapon during a traffic stop for instance, it is a possibility that it could be measured and an issue develop if it is not under 30".

I think you only have to disclose if you are carrying a pistol on or about yourself under the authority of a CPL.

bigbob · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2011, 07:06:09 PM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on December 12, 2011, 01:04:18 AM

Quote from: Super Trucker on December 11, 2011, 01:01:20 PM
My understanding is for a shot gun to be still considered a shotgun and not an AOW is that the barrel MUST be 18" and the entire length needs to be between 26" and 30". The 26" to 30" is a MI thing not federal, so keep that in mind if you travel to other states.

Since you are required to "inform" the popo that you have a weapon during a traffic stop for instance, it is a possibility that it could be measured and an issue develop if it is not under 30".

I think you only have to disclose if you are carrying a pistol on or about yourself under the authority of a CPL.

as would be the case if i had it loaded in my car.

I called 6 gun shops today and got 7 different answers. I picked up the gun today and asked the guy his take on it. he was under the once a pistol always a pistol influence. asked when i dropped of the registration slips at the police depo and she had no answer. I am going to get an email off to the state police and see if i get anything there. that was the suggestion i got at the police office.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2011, 07:20:42 PM »

One former member posted that he had his unregistered. Even posted the letter from MSP doing so.

bigbob · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2011, 08:33:26 PM »

Pat, what do you mean by unregistered? Do you mean it was registered as a pistol, he made it longer and then had it unregistered? or do you mean he had a sub 2k that was just considered a rifle when he bought it? thanks for chriping in here. This whole thing has got me really curious. any chance you remember what his/her username is?

CV67PAT · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2011, 08:43:21 PM »

Quote from: bigbob on December 12, 2011, 08:33:26 PM

Pat, what do you mean by unregistered? Do you mean it was registered as a pistol, he made it longer and then had it unregistered? or do you mean he had a sub 2k that was just considered a rifle when he bought it? thanks for chriping in here. This whole thing has got me really curious. any chance you remember what his/her username is?

It was a ruger 10/22 with collapsable stock that was registered as a pistol. The user placed the original rifle stock on the firearm and sent a letter to MSP requesting that it be un-registered, since it was back to it's original rifle configuration. MSP responded that the firearm was removed from registration as a pistol.

The user is lil_freak_66. I think it was posted on Michigan Gun Owners forum.

I did not know it could be done. But I read the letters posted myself.

ETA: You are correct about not having a loaded rifle in the car. But a loaded registered pistol, is lawful with a CPL. That is why I have a specific rifle with a folding stock registered as a pistol. For both possession (notice I didn't say transporting) in my vehicles loaded and concealed carry. After all, a pistol is only good for fighting your way to your rifle.

bigbob · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:33:11 PM »

ahh i see what you mean. I want it to be registered as a pistol now and always. What I am curious/ concerend about is if ( and i dont have any intentions to do it at the moment but just so i know the legality) the gun was made longer then 30'' long. If I take said gun and keep in in my car loaded would i run into problems with the law saying this is a rifle because it is longer than 30'' and now is illegal to have loaded in the car. I argue that if it is registered as a pistol it would maintain that standing even if made into "rifle length", but I am not sure what the actual law says about it.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:41:35 PM »

Here's a thought...

How readily removable is the recoil pad? If it is a slip on, similar to the one on my M4, you'd still have a pistol as it is not a permanent alteration requiring tools to modify.

And I need to ask why you want to add 1/2" to make it 30" OAL in the first place. Aren't you content with it's current configuration? What would cause you to want to change it?

bigbob · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:48:33 PM »

Yep I am plenty content with it so far. It is more or less a what if thought I had. after thinking about it i was just really curious about what the law has to say about such conditions. Its a 9mm carbine i really dont think a recoil pad will be necessary haha and like you say a slip on one would fit the bill if one were so inclined. I brought it up to a few buddies ( you know the type of buddys you always have to call and tell about your new purchases and invite to the range) and we were all stumped. now I have to figure it out purely to satisfy my curiosity. the same would hold true in situations aside from mine. like if you have an AR pistol and decide to swap the upper and toss a stock on it for a "rifle" is it still a "pistol" technically?

bigbob · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2011, 09:02:58 PM »

still no answer but just to keep info in the thread for anyone who cares.
If you take an AR pistol and put a butt stock and 16 inch barrel on it you have made a rifle. According to the National Firearms act you can not make a pistol out of a rifle so in the laws eyes this would have to be a permanent conversion. If making a pistol out of an AR15 platform you need to use a virgin lower that has never had a butt-stock on it. I guess it wasn't a very parallel comparison i tried to make.
I am going to try to get a hold of Michigan State Police tomorrow and see what their take on it is.

bigbob · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2011, 09:17:35 PM »

state police says it will be considered a rifle no matter what it is registered as if it is over 30''. takes care of that question.

Super Trucker · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2011, 10:37:16 PM »

That is why I said what I did in my last post. I have had a few different MI pistols in the big truck with me over the years. Some cops get mad when you have better equipment then they do and look for ways to screw with ya.

If you are set on having the kel-tec in a vehicle, leave it at 29 1/2" and call it good.

Hopefully we can have SBR's available someday.

kpearce · « **Reply #15 on:** December 19, 2011, 10:49:42 PM »

OK Guys,

There is legislation that has passed the Senate HB 760, 761, 762. It will not pass until sometime next year, but it WILL eliminate the "Michigan Pistol". You MUST have all "Michigan Pistols" registered by January 1, 2012 to keep them as pistols. There will be NO MORE after that date. There is a grandfather clause in the bill that sets this date. It does not matter when the law finally passes and gets signed, the grandfather clause sets the date. It can only be changed if the bill goes all the way back to the beginning and gets placed before the Senate, which is unlikely to happen.

I purchased a pistol grip Remington 870 and built another exact one and registered them today. I had to stand in line in Oakland County, and most gun stores I called looking for parts are in short supply. I think you can just register the receiver and build it later, but you need to do it before January 1, 2012.

The other thing is the SUB 2000 IS a Michigan Pistol. It IS under 30" and has to be registered that way. I have some and carry them in the trucks all the time, but until Jan 1, 2012 they are a pistol in Michigan and must be registered as such. I bought mine from Williams and they would only sell with RI-60 and CPL or Purchase Permit. After Jan 1, 2012 they will be just rifles and MAY NOT be carried loaded in your vehicle.

Ken

autosurgeon · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2011, 12:35:03 PM »

So in short as long as it is registered before 1-1-12 it will remain possible to carry as a pistol? Your post makes it more unclear rather than simpler I am sorry to say.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

CV67PAT · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2011, 01:23:10 PM »

Quote from: autosurgeon on December 20, 2011, 12:35:03 PM

So in short as long as it is registered before 1-1-12 it will remain possible to carry as a pistol? Your post makes it more unclear rather than simpler I am sorry to say.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

I think your answer is here:

Quote from: kpearce on December 19, 2011, 10:49:42 PM

...You MUST have all "Michigan Pistols" registered by January 1, 2012 to keep them as pistols...

autosurgeon · « **Reply #18 on:** December 20, 2011, 03:06:32 PM »

Right but then later his post he said after that date the keltec carbine would revert to a rifle and no longer be able to be carried as a pistol.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

CV67PAT · « **Reply #19 on:** December 20, 2011, 03:17:22 PM »

Quote from: autosurgeon on December 20, 2011, 03:06:32 PM

Right but then later his post he said after that date the keltec carbine would revert to a rifle and no longer be able to be carried as a pistol.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

I don't think it's as complicated as you're making it out to be.

Prior to Jan 1, 2012 it will need to be registered as a pistol.

After Jan 1, 2011 they will no longer be required to be registered as a pistol.

Those registered prior to Jan 1, 2012 will continue to be pistols. And as such may lawfully be possessed as a pistol.

After Jan 1, 2012 any not registered previously as a pistol will be considered rifles and will have to be possessed and transported as such.

Does that explain the Kel-tec adequately?

autosurgeon · « **Reply #20 on:** December 20, 2011, 06:27:47 PM »

Yep... I have read the bills so I understand it... I was more concerned that others might not. Not to mention that the grandfather clause was not in the first round of bills back in 2010.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

kpearce · « **Reply #21 on:** December 20, 2011, 07:49:06 PM »

Sorry guy's I should have been more clear. I re-read my post and can clearly understand the confusion. I meant to say that they must be registered before Jan 1, 2012 to be grandfathered as "Michigan Pistols" and any "NEW" ones sold after that date will be as under the Federal Law a Rifle. However the law has not yet completely passed but it is the grandfather clause that has the date point. Melissa said they have to rewrite the bill to change it and then it would have to be sent back through and that may not likely happen. So we are stuck with the Jan 1, 2012 date to have them all registered by.

On another note I was in 2 different stores this week and they are both very happy to see this law being passed. They supposedly have warehouses full of "rifles" they can now sell to 18-21 year olds without them being classified as a pistol. It brings Michigan in line with Federal Law. However as I told one guy today I can't really see the use for a pistol grip shotgun or folder that can't be carried anywhere, cause you certainly are not using them duck hunting.

Ken

CV67PAT · « **Reply #22 on:** December 20, 2011, 08:40:28 PM »

I certainly enjoy being able to possess and carry a rifle concealed as well as openly anywhere in conjunction with my CPL. I'm entertaining the thought of registering a few more models prior to the end of the year. It'd be way kewl to tote an authentic A-Team stainless Mini-14 anywhere and everywhere. I know a guy with a factory stainless folder. Now if I can just lure it from him.

bigbob · « **Reply #23 on:** December 21, 2011, 10:05:57 PM »

thanks for all the replies everyone. The sub 2000 (Melrose) will the way she is. Kpearce thanks for the heads up. I have not heard anything about that. I have another one still on back order with little chance of getting here before the first of the year. Plan was to register it and sell it to my brother next time he comes back home but I will have to get with him and rethink that. The whole appeal on that gun is it folding in half and being legal to carry loaded in your car.

maustin195 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2011, 05:42:13 PM »

Quote from: autosurgeon on December 20, 2011, 12:35:03 PM

So in short as long as it is registered before 1-1-12 it will remain possible to carry as a pistol? Your post makes it more unclear rather than simpler I am sorry to say.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
[/qute]
The way I read the law as proposed is that the Michigan Pistol doesent have to be registered by 1-1-2012 it just has to be 'owned ,possesed,carried or transported by then. You should then have up to 10 days to register it. This could come in handy if your local P.D. would not accept paperwork during the holiday season.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2011, 06:36:58 PM »

Quote from: maustin195 on December 22, 2011, 05:42:13 PM

Quote from: autosurgeon on December 20, 2011, 12:35:03 PM
So in short as long as it is registered before 1-1-12 it will remain possible to carry as a pistol? Your post makes it more unclear rather than simpler I am sorry to say.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
[/qute]
The way I read the law as proposed is that the Michigan Pistol doesent have to be registered by 1-1-2012 it just has to be 'owned ,possesed,carried or transported by then. You should then have up to 10 days to register it. This could come in handy if your local P.D. would not accept paperwork during the holiday season.

Not quite as I read it...

Quote
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:
SEC. 3. A PERSON WHO, BEFORE JANUARY 1 1, 2012, LAWFULLY OWNED,
POSSESSED, CARRIED, OR TRANSPORTED A FIREARM 30 INCHES OR LESS IN LENGTH AS A PISTOL PURSUANT TO A LICENSE ISSUED UNDER SECTION 2 OR 5B OR PURSUANT TO AN EXEMPTION UNDER SECTION 2 OR 5B MAY CONTINUE TO LAWFULLY OWN, POSSESS, CARRY, OR TRANSPORT THAT FIREARM AS A PISTOL ON OR AFTER JANUARY 1, 2012 PURSUANT TO THAT LICENSE OR ANY RENEWAL OF THAT LICENSE OR PURSUANT TO THAT EXEMPTION.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billintroduced/House/pdf/2011-HIB-4247.pdf

Appears that all needs to be in place prior to January 1, 2012.

Super Trucker · « **Reply #26 on:** December 23, 2011, 12:39:57 PM »

The owner of Top Gun is one of the gun stores that pushed for this to happen.
I guess he thinks there will be a major increase in sales of guns that will not be used for anything other then safe queens. I know I sure don't see many side fold AK's during deer season, and the 18" pistol grip shot guns are not exactly common for shooting small game for some silly reason.

bigbob · « **Reply #27 on:** December 26, 2011, 08:57:26 PM »

I live a few miles from top gun. I guess if it helps sell guns all the power to him but this whole thing is bitter sweet. It is cool in that we dont have to register them anymore and go threw all the pistol requirements, but until we can have loaded rifles in the car ( as if that is going to happen soon....ever) it hurts gun owners more than it helps them.

News:

Author Topic: Is it a rifle or is it a pistol (Read 14572 times)