OC in School and ask to not....

[Scotchman]

I have a question that I think is easy but want a second opinion to make sure. I attend an Amateurr Radio Club meeting which uses an Elementary School for its monthly evening meetings. I started to OC back in August and now "someone is scared  by it and has asked the club to request I leave it behind"....

The simply answer to me seems that the answer is, I dont need to. I attend with my kids and it is late at night and therefore safer to be armed.

Am I correct that there is nothing they can really do other than harrass me? Or should I back away? My kids would rather continue the meetings if we can.

thanks, I know it is probably very simple but thought I should ask you guys.

I made sure that they got the MPS update. They admit that they know the law now! I just want to make sure that the School will still not be an issue and if not... That other newbies like myself never get intimidated by the fear-mongers out there.

[TheQ]

Read this thread and decide what is best for you and your situation.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?80987-No-OC-Waterford-Schools

[CV67PAT]

Q that was not a good referral, in my opinion. Anything involving that idiot "High carbon steel government model" can not be applied to a rational human being's situation.

I would suggest a bit of inquiry on the MGO Legal Beagle Forum instead.

Schools are public property. And OC there with a CPL is lawful. Whether you can be trespassed is subject to debate.

Only you can decide if it is appropriate to "back down" or not. Discretion is often times the better part of valor.

[CV67PAT]

Another comment worthy of reading:

From: Aimee Maike <MaikeA@michigan.gov>
Sent: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:50:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: MCL 28.425o, MCL 750.234d, and open carry

Mr. Cupka,

MCL 28.425o lists the premises upon which a CPL holder may not carry a concealed pistol.  MCL 28.425o does not apply to a CPL holder when he or she is carrying a visible non-concealed pistol, commonly referred to as open carry.  MCL 750.234d lists the premises upon which a person shall not possess a firearm; however, CPL holders are specifically exempted by subsection (2)(c).  Therefore, CPL holders may carry a visible non-concealed pistol on the premises listed in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d without being in violation of either statute.

The following are links to the pertinent statutes for your review:

MCL 28.425o
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vidajy45mwvpgvboqggcel55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-28-425o.pdf

MCL 750.234d
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vidajy45mwvpgvboqggcel55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-750-234d.pdf

Please feel free to contact me directly with any further questions you may have regarding this issue. 

Sincerely,
Sergeant Aimee Maike
Michigan State Police
Office of the Director
Legal Resource and Education Unit
333 South Grand Avenue
P.O. Box 30634
Lansing, Michigan  48909
Desk:  (517) 241-1906
Fax:  (517) 241-0991

[yance]

What I would do is print out the copy of the letter posted above from the MSP and take it to the school to show the principle and the superintendent.  I guess you could argue it, however the facts are right there and the MSP back up what you have been saying.  I would do it unarmed of course.

[CV67PAT]

What I would do is print out the copy of the letter posted above from the MSP and take it to the school to show the principle and the superintendent.  I guess you could argue it, however the facts are right there and the MSP back up what you have been saying.  I would do it unarmed of course.

Why unarmed?

Doesn't the position loose validity?

Why seek permission? Just do it. Or don't.

[Scotchman]

I DID give them a  copy of MSP Update 86 and they understand that I am acting Legally. they are just "asking me not to". Seems I stirred a hornets nest. I just wanted to make sure that as they are not even the School but just a renter of the gym afterhours - that their asking is also meaningless.

This is my first negative encounter and I want it to go as well as possible for the benefit of all OCers.

And I agree! If I am carrying for the protectiong of my family - What good does it do to leave it in the car?

duh....

[CV67PAT]

There you go. They recognize that what you are doing is lawful. The hornet's nest is in their mind. Not yours. We have no control over other's ill conceived "notions." All we can do is go about our business as if what we are doing is natural. Which for us it is. (At least for me.)

One poster here has a habit of advising people to disarm. I would never suggest that to anyone in any lawful situation.

You obviously know what you are doing is lawful and right. The hornets will settle down. If not there are hundreds of other ARRL groups.

[yance]

Pat, I have a funny suspicion youre referring to me, of which I take some offense, my thoughts were if he is not carrying when he approaches them about the topic it might bring about a nuetral environment because then the person(s) being spoke to possibly wont feel threatened as they already do.  Allowing both parties to keep their cool will allow for a much better discussion as oppose to going in carrying and them putting their guard up immediately.  JMO. However on a day to day basis where one is going about their activity in a legal manner I would never tell someone they are better off unarmed, however if being unarmed would benefit ones position in a discussion, or to avoid any legal troubles if there is a gray area, then as a responsible adult it could be the better option.  again JMO. But as a responsible adult you make responsible decisions based on the circumstances, the person making the decisions is the one left with the end result.  We can sit here and say "no go in carrying, hell carry 7 guns"  but if worse comes to worse and he can no longer participate because he followed our advice, then he is the only one left to suffer the consequences. We can be pro carry and advocate carry in all legal circumstances but at some point you have to be open to "what is best for the situation" not "well its my right screw the other guy"  Thats not how to get people to accept carry.  Just as some CCers dont OC but they still advocate it and promote it.

Scotchman, you could always say what I do to people when I'm feeling sarcastic... " I have trained it quite well to stay in the holster until I touch it, otherwise if my gun leaves my holster and starts shooting or committing a crime I will take full responsibility for it."  If it were me, and they were just "asking me not to" and my actions were otherwise legal, I would tell them I would entertain any questions they have and am open to discuss why me carrying is as safe as me not carrying but continue to carry.  I would still carry unless they say you arent welcome any longer, at that point who would want to be with people who do not support their right to bear arms?  Theres a couple ways this could go, you give in and decide not to carry so they can feel "comfortable," you continue to carry and answer their questions or complaints and attempt to show them how its safe regardless, they quite attending, or they ask you to stop attending.  Its your decision regardless of what anyone on these forums say.  Do what you feel is right, if you arent breaking the law, then well, you arent breaking the law, simple as that.  But ask them "what makes you feel nervous? Have I pulled it out and played with it? Have I acted strangely or in a matter that would make you concerned?  Have I said anything that would give you a reason to believe I wouldnt be safe carrying my firearm?"  If they can answer no to all of the above then ask them why they are afraid of you carrying.

[CV67PAT]

I am so sorry that you feel offended. I did not want to offend you. I simply pointed out that while some posters frequently advocated disarming ourselves, I don't.

By disarming the OP would give the opponents a perception of victory. If he wishes to protect himself at all times, how is it any different from the meeting. Wouldn't sitting there in a natural condition be more impressive? Wouldn't it show that the OP is indeed a rational individual, albeit armed? The opponents already acknowledged that the OP was conducting himself lawfully. Why back peddle to make his point?

This isn't the first, and I am sure it won't be the last, time that you Yance specifically (there I did not beat around the bush) have opined that someone should leave there gun at home under various lawful situations. This is not some grey area. Again, the opposition has acknowledged the legality of the OP's actions.

No one said to go to the extreme and carry 7 guns. That sort of statement is only an attempt to distract from your misguided advice to disarm.

[PaulC]

Comfort.... I think your decision should be based on your comfort level. There have been posts regarding people who have current cases for carrying in a "PFZ". I personally OC during school hours and have carried at Conferences. I carry the Preemption law MCL 123.1102 and MSP update #86 as well as the Gun Free School Zone Act (P.L. 101-647, Sec. 1702(b)(1)). I carry these stapled together with applicable parts highlighted. I also researched to see if my school district had a "rule" on the books regarding firearms, which they didn't. If they did I would consider it unlawful due to preemption, some argue that preemption does not include regional authorities. My opinion is that a School board is a local form of government.

I have not had ONE person approach me from the school district.

I did not OC there until I felt comfortable enough in the law and my ability to explain it. Now I OC where ever I legally can (including schools) when I feel like OC'ing.

I would be careful when listening to other stories. We (you or me) do NOT know the variables involved (demeanor, situation, other rules/laws broken or perceived to be broken). Others here may have more insight to each specific instance, but IMO unless it was recorded or you were there, it is hard to compare. 

[TheQ]

I am so sorry that you feel offended. I did not want to offend you.

Snickers.

[CV67PAT]

Snickers.

Snickers satisfy.

[yance]

I do not advocate disarming either, however, I do advocate making GOOD decisions.  And by frequently telling others to leave their firearms at home you must be referring to the other thread where a young man was asking about driving around leaving his firearm in his trunk at all times, when he doesnt possess a CPL.  We already discussed that in depth but I will again say that without a CPL he could possibly face legal actions against him if he was found to have his firearm in his car on the premises of a PFZ.  So I advocated he didnt play with fire and leave his firearm at home since he even admitted he didnt plan on carrying unless he "felt he needed to."  Now, I am not saying this gentleman should leave his firearm at home, but, if he wishes to discuss this with those opposing him carrying, maybe leave it in the car while speaking with them.  I will agree however that him carrying and sitting there peacefully, as I'm sure he has been, could very well show that he is responsible and safe, if he chooses not to discuss this any further and decides to just carry as usual.    It is his decision to make, however we should promote the BEST choice not only the PRO CARRY choice when encountering unfavorable scenarios such as his.   And I made the "carry 7 guns" statement as a loose example, not reflecting anything anyone has said, to reflect how we can give a person any advice we please, and if they choose to follow it, they will then be the only ones responsible for their actions.  You'll probably have a hard time finding someone who would advocate carrying more guns into a place where some might not be comfortable with someone else carrying.   We find ourselves here to give GOOD advice and sometimes maybe GOOD advice can be the route of allow it to stay in the car while you speak with them.  His situation is not a "gray area" its him deciding if he cares how they feel or not.  The "gray area" I spoke of is meant to reference legal gray areas, which can quickly become black marks on your record if handled improperly.  So are you, Pat, advocating someone venture into "gray areas" with their firearm and potentially lose their rights, or should they make the GOOD decision and leave the firearm behind if going into "gray areas?" Now with this situation the gentleman who is the OP has a decision which can be any one of a lot of decisions on how to handle this, mine was just one opinion as is yours.  Now, being an opinion, I would respect that you didnt take it personally as me trying to disarm any of our law abiding citizens but more so as this is one option.  Sometimes taking the lesser of two roads can lead you to the top of the mountain.  Its like the old saying "you get more flies with honey," now I'm not saying give up carrying period when he attends the meetings, but when he goes in to speak with the persons involved, go in without the firearm.  Explain how what youre doing is legal and that you are choosing to continue to carry while you attend the meetings and you would be happy to answer any questions but from now on you will continue to carry as you have been.  I'm in no way saying to leave it at home indefinitely.  And I have not once mentioned to someone to leave their firearm at home under any lawful circumstances where their actions would not be seen as anything but legal, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Such as CPL holders possessing firearms in PFZ as in 750.234d 2(c).

[CV67PAT]

I am not really into attracting flies.

I don't see nearly as many "gray areas" as you either.

I read the laws and see black and white.

[yance]

nothing quick and witty huh...losing your touch? 

Either way, there is a good and smart way to go about something to achieve the desired results then there is the "screw the other guy" way.  I was opining that possibly the good and smart way that I suggested be the better route to take as opposed to doing it and not exhausting other possibilities to get the optimal result.

The OP is correct in his actions in that they violate no law, by OCing in the school, its just a matter of the other people attending not liking him carrying, in which case there are plenty of people in the world everyday that do not appreciate us carrying.  If he has tried to explain it to them, and they realize it is legal but "just dont like it" then oh well, hes not making them carry it or handle it so I guess they can sit there and be uncomfortable or come to the realization that there is no reason to be uncomfortable.  The OP mentioned he has tried speaking with them and they still dont like it, so since that route has been covered, like the OP stated, then I guess the only thing left to do is carry.

Otherwise, carry until youre too old to lift the gun...then get a rig to do it for you.

[CV67PAT]

You remind me of another youngster that used to frequent this forum.

[yance]

By that its probably a bad thing.  However, if you were to meet me at any one of the events I attend or throw together you would see I am very pro carry, in fact I'm currently working on things to hopefully help improve carry for those without CPLs.  If it matters.

[TheQ]

I won't tell someone the color is #FFFFFF when it is #EEEEEE.

....IT geek reference.

[CV67PAT]

It's all geek to me.