New(er) Gun Enthusiast With Some Questions

[Mando21]

Hi everyone!  I just found this site recently and have been reading... I never even knew it was legal to open carry in Michigan!  Much less without a permit.  Of course, I am only eighteen.  I think that this is awesome... and I'm quite pleased to learn that an 18 year old can own a handgun (even if I cannot buy one) which brings me to some questions.

Can an 18 year old get a CCW?

If I cannot buy a handgun, how could I get one without getting into the whole "straw man purchase" thing?

How would I go about getting a CCW exactly?

Can the police refuse to license me?

Where can I not carry even if I had a CCW while open carrying?

Answers would be very much appreciated!

Thanks.

[Twinge]

in the state of michigan you have to be 21 years old before you can obtain your CPL

there is no way to purchase a handgun unless you have someone transfer it to you, you must be 21 to purchase from a dealer.

first step to obtaining a CPL is to attend an 8 hour class, then you have to fill out the appropriate application and follow the process.

they can refuse, but typically wont unless you have some sort of issue in your background check

PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act (Note-This is any place that sells alcohol, e.g. Krogers, party stores, etc.)

[Mando21]

Oh... rats.   

But I could open carry?  Yes? 

[Twinge]

absolutely yes you could, provided the handgun is legally registered to you

[Mando21]

Well, that is a relief anyway!  Thank you very much. 

[Waterborne]

You can purchase

snip
there is no way to purchase a handgun unless you have someone transfer it to you, you must be 21 to purchase from a dealer.

You can purchase from a private seller at 18.  You have to be 21 to purchase from an FFL. 

[Bronson]

Oh... rats.   

But I could open carry?  Yes?

Note that by the strict letter of the law you may not have your gun anywhere on the property of the places listed previously unless you meet one of the exemptions in the law, two of which are having permission from the owner/agent of the owner or having a CPL.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(slbs1xjb4z5o41uxqkhzq245))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-234d

Also without a CPL you may not have the loaded firearm anywhere that is accesible while driving.  The gun must be unloaded, in a case designed to store a firearm and in your trunk.  If you don't have a trunk the gun must be unloaded, in a case desingned to store a firearm and placed in your vehicle so as not to be readily accesible to the occupants.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3yubavqibw0lzwyy50zmsony))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-227&query=on&highlight=concealed%20AND%20pistol

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hc1fsp55bojnri45pipmotuj))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-231a&query=on&highlight=pistol%20AND%20trunk

Bronson

[Mando21]

Note that by the strict letter of the law you may not have your gun anywhere on the property of the places listed previously unless you meet one of the exemptions in the law, two of which are having permission from the owner/agent of the owner or having a CPL.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(slbs1xjb4z5o41uxqkhzq245))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-234d

Bronson
[/quote]....

Does that mean that I cannot even have my handgun unloaded/locked up inside a case in my car?  I mean while in the parking lot of a prohibited place.

OK, so I can buy handguns privately... I was actually wondering about that so thanks for clarifying.

So, I could open carry... where... hm.  It seems like they make it rather difficult--but then that is probably the idea.  I mean, I guess I could OC on my property, in a park, probably in the woods, in a gunstore I would hope, in any store that doesn't sell alcohol... The whole thing about OCing in places that are selling alcohol throws quite loop in carrying around in general (I would think), and I saw a post somewhere about having to be careful while taking your handgun to and from your car...

However, I have seen/heard arguments from people that the law only prohibits OC in places like bars, not stores.

Still, I am guessing that it would be better to be safe than sorry and just stay away from anywhere where OC has the possibility of being prohibited. 

Man, I just got back from an extremely gun-friendly western state and while I am pleased that Michigan isn't completely gone in regards to OC, it sure is a pain!  I wonder what the chances are of improving the OC laws around here....

[Bronson]

  Does that mean that I cannot even have my handgun unloaded/locked up inside a case in my car?  I mean while in the parking lot of a prohibited place. 

Technically, no you cannot.  Just like every hunter that doesn't have a CPL or permission from the owner to be on the property that stops into a gas station that sells beer with a gun in the trunk may be in violation.  However, to date there has not been a single case that we've been able to find of a person being convicted for breaking this law alone.

I saw a post somewhere about having to be careful while taking your handgun to and from your car...

Yes.  Without a CPL you are not allowed to have a handgun in the car.  So if you remove the gun case from the trunk, place the cased handgun on the trunk lid, load and holster the gun....then remember that you left your wallet in the car and lean in the driver's side and the gun enters the car, BINGO you're in violation.

However, I have seen/heard arguments from people that the law only prohibits OC in places like bars, not stores.

Those people are wrong.  28.425o is the law that lists the places a CPL holder may not carry a CONCEALED pistol and that law does in fact only apply to bars/taverns where the primary income is alcohol sales.  If you do not have a CPL then you wouldn't be carrying concealed so that law doesn't apply to you.  Without a CPL you would be OCing and bound by the list found in 750.234d  which states:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

The range of laws listed encompass the entire liquor control code so any business licensed under any section of the liquor control code would be off limits.  Oh and once you do your research you'll find that Act No. 8 of 1933 has been repealed but it has been replaced by another code and the new code specifically states that any reference in any other law to the old 1933 code will now automatically refer to the new code.....so nothing changed.

Still, I am guessing that it would be better to be safe than sorry and just stay away from anywhere where OC has the possibility of being prohibited. 

I've never had to do it because I have my CPL but there are people that make it work but you have to be careful and smart.

I wonder what the chances are of improving the OC laws around here....

Are you a paying member of MOC?  Right now that's one of the best things we can do.  MOC is at the spear point of the charge to advance gun rights for all people in MI.

Bronson

[TheQ]

Sign up for our legislative action alert list to. Someone paste the URL for me?

[TheQ]

Also note: we have events scheduled regularly in Kzoo/Battle Creek. Stay tuned!

[Mando21]

Thank you for all the information!  I feel a lot more prepared to begin carrying (once I get a handgun) and now I now how to avoid being thrown in prison... which makes me feel a lot better about OC, being as I have an incredible paranoia about prison.   

I am not a paying member of MOC yet, but I will be before long.  And I signed up for the legislative alerts... I am so thrilled that there are people fighting for our Constitutional right to carry in Michigan!

I live within a reasonable distance of Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, so I expect to be seeing some of you guys, perhaps soon.

[Bronson]

Thank you for all the information!  I feel a lot more prepared to begin carrying (once I get a handgun) and now I now how to avoid being thrown in prison... which makes me feel a lot better about OC, being as I have an incredible paranoia about prison.   

I am not a paying member of MOC yet, but I will be before long.  And I signed up for the legislative alerts... I am so thrilled that there are people fighting for our Constitutional right to carry in Michigan!

I live within a reasonable distance of Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, so I expect to be seeing some of you guys, perhaps soon.

Please don't take my word on how the law works.  Do the reading and come to your own conclusions.  We're happy to answer questions but don't take our words for gospel...read it for yourself.

I'm in Battle Creek and normally have Tue-Thu off.

Bronson

[TheQ]

You should make sure YOU Have read and understand the laws yourself BEFORE you carry.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

[Mando21]

Will do. 

I just can get a little bogged down and confused on occasion, so I like to hear opinions other than my own.

[Mando21]

Oh, thanks for the PDF! 

[Super Trucker]

Sign up for our legislative action alert list to. Someone paste the URL for me?

http://miopencarry.us4.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=710075bba75b914b805e1861a&id=663239acb4
 
Go to that link and fill in the blanks. There are links on that page to find out what districts you are in if you are not sure.

[Mando21]

All ready signed up earlier today, but thanks.

[CV67PAT]

  Does that mean that I cannot even have my handgun unloaded/locked up inside a case in my car?  I mean while in the parking lot of a prohibited place. 

Technically, no you cannot.  Just like every hunter that doesn't have a CPL or permission from the owner to be on the property that stops into a gas station that sells beer with a gun in the trunk may be in violation.  However, to date there has not been a single case that we've been able to find of a person being convicted for breaking this law alone.

Technically, yes you can. The permit to purchase required by MCL 28.422 is a "License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol;" Each of those actions are specific and different.

In fact the attorney general was asked to opine on this very subject of "transporting being possession" and he responded that a formal opinion was not necessary because "transporting" was lawful on the premises where "possession" is prohibited.

So with that in mind, transporting your unloaded and lawfully stored firearms is legal on the premises of places where possession is prohibited.

The leadership of MOC is aware of this informal opinion. I believe that the AG does not feel that a formal opinion is necessary because the law is unambiguous.

[Mando21]

Thanks for the info, CV67PAT. 

I went to the OC questions forum and went to the "New, Start Here" post and found that the same view that you expressed was more or less in the PFZ.pdf...

I guess now I need to stop procrastinating and read Michigan's gun laws for myself... but 280 pages of legal jargon intimidates me.  Oh well, guess I might as well start now.