Author Topic: Stopped For Open Carry Last Night (Read 30616 times)

Sterling · « **on:** May 20, 2012, 10:59:49 AM »

I was taking a walk downtown in my city last night around 11 p.m. (beautiful night) and had three (L.E.O.) cars pull up on me. It was my second encounter being harassed for open carrying. Only one officer spoke; there were probably around four or five altogether. One came up on my side to point his flashlight on my holster.

Here's the conversation:

L.E.O.: (Turning in front of me, window down) How're you doin'?

Me: Good! How are you?

(At this point, the two other cars swarmed in.)

L.E.O.: Good. Hey are you the guy we talked to before? About open carry?

Me: I'm not answering that.

L.E.O.: Are you a part of any groups or organiz—

Me: I'm not answering that.

He stepped out of his vehicle toward me and I took one giant methodical step back as to communicate that I didn't want any part of being close to him or that I would not consent to a seizure of my property.

I was polite but firm. After it became clear I wasn't interested in a conversation, he started trying to lecture me about being uncooperative and how I "have their attention now" and that he was "sure we'd run into [me] again."

I stood silent and let him speak. I wasn't going to counter any of his arguments. I spent most of the lecture looking around at the other officers and their vehicles. When he was finished, he said, "Have a nice night" or something similar. I replied, "Thank you, you too." and just continued walking.

He was clearly upset that I didn't want to talk and seemed to take my responses personally, which disappoints me as a tax-payer and leads me to question his professionalism. I also found it ironic that he claimed I wanted attention when I really just wanted to be left alone. I have no idea why L.E.O.s tend to focus so intently on the wrong things.

I do remain thankful, however, that everyone there understood open carry and that it wasn't a crime. Small victories, I suppose.

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2012, 11:05:09 AM »

Downtown where? Did you have a recorder? If not, run out & get one NOW. Sounds like some small minds with a big agenda, looking to jam you up. You handled it well, but protect yourself.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2012, 11:08:43 AM »

Quote from: Sterling on May 20, 2012, 10:59:49 AM

I was taking a walk downtown in my city last night around 11 p.m. (beautiful night) and had three (L.E.O.) cars pull up on me. It was my second encounter being harassed for open carrying. Only one officer spoke; there were probably around four or five altogether. One came up on my side to point his flashlight on my holster.

Here's the conversation:

L.E.O.: (Turning in front of me, window down) How're you doin'?

Me: Good! How are you?

(At this point, the two other cars swarmed in.)

L.E.O.: Good. Hey are you the guy we talked to before? About open carry?

Me: I'm not answering that.

L.E.O.: Are you a part of any groups or organiz—

Me: I'm not answering that.

He stepped out of his vehicle toward me and I took one giant methodical step back as to communicate that I didn't want any part of being close to him or that I would not consent to a seizure of my property.

I was polite but firm. After it became clear I wasn't interested in a conversation, he started trying to lecture me about being uncooperative and how I "have their attention now" and that he was "sure we'd run into [me] again."

I stood silent and let him speak. I wasn't going to counter any of his arguments. I spent most of the lecture looking around at the other officers and their vehicles. When he was finished, he said, "Have a nice night" or something similar. I replied, "Thank you, you too." and just continued walking.

He was clearly upset that I didn't want to talk and seemed to take my responses personally, which disappoints me as a tax-payer and leads me to question his professionalism. I also found it ironic that he claimed I wanted attention when I really just wanted to be left alone. I have no idea why L.E.O.s tend to focus so intently on the wrong things.

I do remain thankful, however, that everyone there understood open carry and that it wasn't a crime. Small victories, I suppose.

^^^THIS^^^ is how to do it. Saying nothing at all, immediately after informing them that you do not want to answer any questions.

Take note of this Brainless1911.

Bronson · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2012, 11:58:39 AM »

Quote from: Sterling on May 20, 2012, 10:59:49 AM

I took one giant methodical step back as to communicate that I didn't want any part of being close to him or that I would not consent to a seizure of my property.

Did you actually say you wouldn't consent to search or seizure? Because if you didn't say it, it wasn't communicated. At least that's what they would say in court.

Bronson

Sterling · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2012, 12:31:12 PM »

I did not. Of course if he would have asked or if he would have started to reach I would have said it right away.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2012, 12:41:52 PM »

Quote from: Sterling on May 20, 2012, 12:31:12 PM

I did not. Of course if he would have asked or if he would have started to reach I would have said it right away.

Where?

TheQ · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2012, 12:58:26 PM »

Did you ask if you were being detained? If not, we're there any indications you were being detained? (flashing lights -- etc)

Sterling · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2012, 01:03:41 PM »

I knew I wasn't being detained. It was merely a citizen contact and it all lasted about a minute. I'm lucky enough to live in an area where the force knows that it's legal. It's just unfortunate that when they see someone open carrying, they don't just wave and pass on by.

I've been a regular reader of the forums here now for about a year and a half and due to my line of work, I'm well aware of all of my rights, legal procedures, etc.

Sterling · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2012, 01:04:59 PM »

To be more clear: no flashing lights. Three cars in a commercial (not busy at all) intersection. A few officers standing around me, one in front of me talking, and some in their vehicles.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2012, 01:57:54 PM »

Where?

JoeCar · « **Reply #10 on:** May 27, 2012, 07:06:13 AM »

Can you give the name of the city that this encounter happened? Inquiring minds want to know.

T Mack · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2012, 05:39:04 PM »

Good stuff!! Carry on! !

autosurgeon · « **Reply #12 on:** June 04, 2012, 11:51:27 AM »

Where did this happen OP? General location and department please so that our members in your local may assist you in dealing with this department that has so much free time!

Sterling · « **Reply #13 on:** June 05, 2012, 05:31:35 PM »

As a new poster here, I'd like to thank all of the users who replied to this thread with supportive comments. I do remain, however, deeply, deeply disappointed with some of the replies accusing me of being a 'rat', a liar, and anti-open carry.

Open carry forums should be a place where fellow open carriers should feel safe, and where new, potential members should feel welcomed and valued. Sadly, the opposite has happened here.

I received an e-mail message from a moderator requesting that I disclose my location. I do not wish to do so, and no such rule requires me to do so. That decision should be left to me alone. I replied to the moderator, and I also sent a Facebook message to TheQ -- we happen to be Facebook friends -- expressing my disappointment. It's unfortunate that with everything my encounter entailed, the non-disclosure of the specific location was what was focused on.

Until I can be reassured that this forum is a safe place for participants and that new, potential Michigan Open Carry members are welcomed and valued, I must limit my participation to visiting only. I hope that in the future, that will change.

TheQ · « **Reply #14 on:** June 05, 2012, 05:58:13 PM »

It wouldn't be the internet without a bit of public drama, would it?

For those interested in my exact location, it can be found here.

*shrugs*.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #15 on:** June 05, 2012, 07:34:11 PM »

Quote from: Sterling on June 05, 2012, 05:31:35 PM

As a new poster here, I'd like to thank all of the users who replied to this thread with supportive comments. I do remain, however, deeply, deeply disappointed with some of the replies accusing me of being a 'rat', a liar, and anti-open carry.

Open carry forums should be a place where fellow open carriers should feel safe, and where new, potential members should feel welcomed and valued. Sadly, the opposite has happened here.

I received an e-mail message from a moderator requesting that I disclose my location. I do not wish to do so, and no such rule requires me to do so. That decision should be left to me alone. I replied to the moderator, and I also sent a Facebook message to TheQ -- we happen to be Facebook friends -- expressing my disappointment. It's unfortunate that with everything my encounter entailed, the non-disclosure of the specific location was what was focused on.

Until I can be reassured that this forum is a safe place for participants and that new, potential Michigan Open Carry members are welcomed and valued, I must limit my participation to visiting only. I hope that in the future, that will change.

You don't think it is "safe" here? How is it unsafe?

The non-disclosure of the location was focused on because many MOC members could be at risk.

Yours is the first time that I have ever seen someone post about such an encounter as yours without including the location so as to alert others.

Just what was the purpose of your post in the first place?

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #16 on:** June 05, 2012, 07:43:31 PM »

Quote from: Sterling on June 05, 2012, 05:31:35 PM

As a new poster here, I'd like to thank all of the users who replied to this thread with supportive comments. I do remain, however, deeply, deeply disappointed with some of the replies accusing me of being a 'rat', a liar, and anti-open carry.

Open carry forums should be a place where fellow open carriers should feel safe, and where new, potential members should feel welcomed and valued. Sadly, the opposite has happened here.

I received an e-mail message from a moderator requesting that I disclose my location. I do not wish to do so, and no such rule requires me to do so. That decision should be left to me alone. I replied to the moderator, and I also sent a Facebook message to TheQ -- we happen to be Facebook friends -- expressing my disappointment. It's unfortunate that with everything my encounter entailed, the non-disclosure of the specific location was what was focused on.

Until I can be reassured that this forum is a safe place for participants and that new, potential Michigan Open Carry members are welcomed and valued, I must limit my participation to visiting only. I hope that in the future, that will change.

We weren't looking for your address; we were looking for the city.

Oh, well, buhbye!

gryphon · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2012, 05:47:28 PM »

Quote from: Sterling on June 05, 2012, 05:31:35 PM

replies accusing me of being a 'rat', a liar, and anti-open carry.

I'm confused. I don't see any posts accusing you of being a rat, a liar, or against OC. I think you did a good job, although it would be nice to know what town you live in. But that's up to you.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2012, 06:11:57 PM »

Quote from: gryphon on June 06, 2012, 05:47:28 PM

Quote from: Sterling on June 05, 2012, 05:31:35 PM
replies accusing me of being a 'rat', a liar, and anti-open carry.
I'm confused. I don't see any posts accusing you of being a rat, a liar, or against OC. I think you did a good job, although it would be nice to know what town you live in. But that's up to you.

They must have been super secret posts that only the OP could see.

Agree that it appears that he handled things well. I'd like to know where so that I could be prepared.

Yep that's up to him.

TheQ · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2012, 07:06:51 PM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on June 06, 2012, 06:11:57 PM

Quote from: gryphon on June 06, 2012, 05:47:28 PM
Quote from: Sterling on June 05, 2012, 05:31:35 PM
replies accusing me of being a 'rat', a liar, and anti-open carry.
I'm confused. I don't see any posts accusing you of being a rat, a liar, or against OC. I think you did a good job, although it would be nice to know what town you live in. But that's up to you.

They must have been super secret posts that only the OP could see.

Or posts that have been deleted.

kryptonian · « **Reply #20 on:** June 07, 2012, 10:24:44 AM »

i want to know the location only so i can go there and OC to see if i am subject to the same LEO attention. in about a half dozen times i went to locations where previous OCers have been stopped or had problems and i OC i have not had any problems at all. this makes me think that it's the individual and maybe not OC or maybe i'm not a threatening person when i OC.
as far as the commentary i have received negative commentary on some encounters i have reported but i took it as constructive criticsm. it's easy to keyboard quarterback after the fact and you can only think so fast during an encounter. you make mistakes. reporting an encounter in here is like standing in front of American Idol judges but i have learned so much on here and my next OC encounter i am hugely prepared as a result. you may notice the negative LEO encounters are drying up. LEO know it's legal and OCers are legally knowledgeable. they can try but it's all bluff and show.
it doesnt matter what forum you are on - could be quilting or cars or whatever..there will ALWAYS be negative people who love nothing more than to be needlessly critical only for the purpose of impressing people with their "knowledge". get used to it. i have.

onnie0047@gmail.com · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2012, 03:07:46 PM »

bet you cant find me!!! shoot, i know I going to loose this one

northofnowhere · « **Reply #22 on:** June 08, 2012, 10:18:14 AM »

I am officially Hijacking this tread. It shall now become an auction site. Do I hear $1.98 for Onnie's address? Anyways, in all seriousness, I am sorry you got distraught over something somone said or PM'd you with. I thought all the comments were in a positive light myself. If you don't wanna give out your location, that's fine by me too. BTW, I live in Lake Linden, but don't tell no one.

Robknight13607 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2012, 04:35:43 PM »

Quote from: northofnowhere on June 08, 2012, 10:18:14 AM

I am officially Hijacking this tread. It shall now become an auction site. Do I hear $1.98 for Onnie's address? Anyways, in all seriousness, I am sorry you got distraught over something somone said or PM'd you with. I thought all the comments were in a positive light myself. If you don't wanna give out your location, that's fine by me too. BTW, I live in Lake Linden, but don't tell no one.

I live in Wyandotte. Oops, did I say that outloud?

METL · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »

Quote from: northofnowhere on June 08, 2012, 10:18:14 AM

BTW, I live in Lake Linden, but don't tell no one.

Since it's hijacked... what's up with the INCREDIBLE amount of fine looking women in the linden/lake fenton area?!?! I need to move... pronto!

Eliteedge_7 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 06, 2012, 03:37:20 AM »

I understand why you guys want to know were this guy lives but to be so invasive on a persons privacy is exactly what our 5th amendment is against. pressuring a person to give information that they are not comfortable with is wrong and you are acting just like the LOE's who push there boundaries. I am from Pentwater Michigan and have no qualms telling any one that, but some may be more closed to giving there location. Do not come down on this guy. This behavior is the way to give MOC a bad name, as if it needs any more bad press with our liberal media.

WilDChilD · « **Reply #26 on:** October 06, 2012, 12:10:15 PM »

Quote from: Eliteedge_7 on October 06, 2012, 03:37:20 AM

I understand why you guys want to know were this guy lives but to be so invasive on a persons privacy is exactly what our 5th amendment is against. pressuring a person to give information that they are not comfortable with is wrong and you are acting just like the LOE's who push there boundaries. I am from Pentwater Michigan and have no qualms telling any one that, but some may be more closed to giving there location. Do not come down on this guy. This behavior is the way to give MOC a bad name, as if it needs any more bad press with our liberal media.

Oooook..................Welcome?

CV67PAT · « **Reply #27 on:** October 06, 2012, 12:24:51 PM »

Quote from: Eliteedge_7 on October 06, 2012, 03:37:20 AM

I understand why you guys want to know were this guy lives but to be so invasive on a persons privacy is exactly what our 5th amendment is against. pressuring a person to give information that they are not comfortable with is wrong and you are acting just like the LOE's who push there boundaries. I am from Pentwater Michigan and have no qualms telling any one that, but some may be more closed to giving there location. Do not come down on this guy. This behavior is the way to give MOC a bad name, as if it needs any more bad press with our liberal media.

Where is there an application of the 5th Amendment here? We aren't the government interrogating this guy. And if it was applicable, the moment he started to talk, he would be waiving his right to remain silent.

And it is preposterous to claim that there is an "invasion of privacy" as it applies to making PUBLIC statements on a PUBLICLY accessible forum.

The whole purpose of posting "open carry encounters" is to inform and enlighten others as to when, where, and how these encounters are encountered.

If you want that high of a degree of privacy, don't want to receive feedback comments, or if you're just that paranoid, don't post on the internet.

ocdetroit · « **Reply #28 on:** October 06, 2012, 06:04:41 PM »

+1 carry on

TucTom · « **Reply #29 on:** October 07, 2012, 05:08:52 PM »

Since this was brought back up 2+mos after the last post.
I was Open Carrying once someplace and something happened. Then someone came and said something to me so I may or may not have said something back. Then other things may or may not have happened. But the best part was I may or may not have left happy.

All in all in may or may not have been a good or bad experience.

Oh, should I have just started a new topic?

CV67PAT · « **Reply #30 on:** October 07, 2012, 05:16:35 PM »

Quote from: TucTom on October 07, 2012, 05:08:52 PM

Since this was brought back up 2+mos after the last post.
I was Open Carrying once someplace and something happened. Then someone came and said something to me so I may or may not have said something back. Then other things may or may not have happened. But the best part was I may or may not have left happy.

All in all in may or may not have been a good or bad experience.

Oh, should I have just started a new topic?

The same thing almost happened to me someplace.

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #31 on:** October 07, 2012, 05:53:05 PM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on October 07, 2012, 05:16:35 PM

The same thing almost happened to me someplace.

What a coinkydink, something almost happened to me, too. I gotta remember to be careful when I go to someplace.

Note to everybody, be careful when you go to someplace! Somebody may or may not do or say something. It might be a LEO, or not, and he/she may draw down on you for OCing, or not.

Scary times, my friends, scary times....

TheQ · « **Reply #32 on:** October 07, 2012, 08:17:07 PM »

A guy who has been registered almost a year and his second post is a necro-post because he didn't like some questions someone was asked?

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #33 on:** October 07, 2012, 08:47:07 PM »

Quote from: TheQ on October 07, 2012, 08:17:07 PM

A guy who has been registered almost a year and his second post is a necro-post because he didn't like some questions someone was asked?

A closet liberal, I'd say. I wonder where he's from?

Pond Scum · « **Reply #34 on:** October 07, 2012, 09:25:14 PM »

Quote from: Eliteedge_7 on October 06, 2012, 03:37:20 AM

I understand why you guys want to know were this guy lives but to be so invasive on a persons privacy is exactly what our 5th amendment is against. pressuring a person to give information that they are not comfortable with is wrong and you are acting just like the LOE's who push there boundaries. I am from Pentwater Michigan and have no qualms telling any one that, but some may be more closed to giving there location. Do not come down on this guy. This behavior is the way to give MOC a bad name, as if it needs any more bad press with our liberal media.

I agree. If the OP doesn't want to disclose his location that is his choice and I respect his decision. Badgering, mocking and pounding on him won't change his mind and will only serve to chase him away from the forum.

Quote from: TheQ on October 07, 2012, 08:17:07 PM

A guy who has been registered almost a year and his second post is a necro-post because he didn't like some questions someone was asked?

Quote from: Shadow Bear on October 07, 2012, 08:47:07 PM

A closet liberal, I'd say. I wonder where he's from?

Now you are piling on by mocking someone that supported the OP.

Wow! This is the kind of forum that I want to share my personal experiences. I just love getting kicked around by a bunch of strangers. Sigh.

yance · « **Reply #35 on:** October 08, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »

Pond Scum, its really not that serious if you understand a little bit of sarcasm, which you will find on any forum that you might happen to visit. The whole issue was started because other posters wanted to know where the OP was from in case it was in or near the area in which they live. For these forums you can simply list the city that you live in, there's no personal information thats going to be revealed to the public. However it lets others who may live in or near the area know what is going on in the event they might be facing the same problem. the person who posted a few posts ago and brought this thread back to life went a little overboard with his response and there was some slight sarcasm, no one was trolling or kicking anyone around. True everyone has the right to not post their location and we wont force you to either, but it is helpful when detailing an event to either have your location listed or to mention it so others know where they might run into a problem so they can be prepared if necessary, is that too much to ask? As for the others, they dont mean any harm...they just dont know any better

CV67PAT · « **Reply #36 on:** October 08, 2012, 01:49:34 PM »

I open carried yesterday. And today.

TucTom · « **Reply #37 on:** October 08, 2012, 02:24:35 PM »

Quote from: yance on October 08, 2012, 01:41:04 PM

Pond Scum, its really not that serious if you understand a little bit of sarcasm, which you will find on any forum that you might happen to visit. The whole issue was started because other posters wanted to know where the OP was from in case it was in or near the area in which they live. For these forums you can simply list the city that you live in, there's no personal information thats going to be revealed to the public. However it lets others who may live in or near the area know what is going on in the event they might be facing the same problem. the person who posted a few posts ago and brought this thread back to life went a little overboard with his response and there was some slight sarcasm, no one was trolling or kicking anyone around. True everyone has the right to not post their location and we wont force you to either, but it is helpful when detailing an event to either have your location listed or to mention it so others know where they might run into a problem so they can be prepared if necessary, is that too much to ask?

+1

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #38 on:** October 08, 2012, 07:59:11 PM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on October 08, 2012, 01:49:34 PM

I open carried yesterday. And today.

Where? And, did any thing happen?

CV67PAT · « **Reply #39 on:** October 08, 2012, 08:05:50 PM »

Quote from: Shadow Bear on October 08, 2012, 07:59:11 PM

Where?

Everywhere.

Quote from: Shadow Bear on October 08, 2012, 07:59:11 PM

And, did any thing happen?

Yes.

Eliteedge_7 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »

Quote from: TheQ on October 07, 2012, 08:17:07 PM

A guy who has been registered almost a year and his second post is a necro-post because he didn't like some questions someone was asked?

so I have to post every day to meet your approval. I believe in ones right to privacy is all.

Quote from: Shadow Bear on October 07, 2012, 08:47:07 PM

A closet liberal, I'd say. I wonder where he's from?

For your information I am Not liberal. I was raised in Mears, Michigan and currently reside in Pentwater. I am the President and Founder of the True Elite Motorsports Club http://www.facebook.com/pages/True-Elite-Motorsports-Club/156336041063015, which is a open carry supporting and pro-constitution club. I do not post because I use this site mainly to keep up on changing laws. Open carry has been a standard practice of mine and my Club for years now, and this forum is becoming too judgmental and I wanted to point this out. This should be a family experience to people, and people should not come here and see people being interrogated. If this person did not want to put his personal info out there, regardless if what he said actually happened or not, it is wrong in order to get private information on a public forum.

WilDChilD · « **Reply #41 on:** October 11, 2012, 04:14:19 PM »

Quote from: Eliteedge_7 on October 11, 2012, 02:28:29 PM

so I have to post every day to meet your approval. I believe in ones right to privacy is all.

For your information I am Not liberal. I was raised in Mears, Michigan and currently reside in Pentwater. I am the President and Founder of the True Elite Motorsports Club http://www.facebook.com/pages/True-Elite-Motorsports-Club/156336041063015, which is a open carry supporting and pro-constitution club. I do not post because I use this site mainly to keep up on changing laws. Open carry has been a standard practice of mine and my Club for years now, and this forum is becoming too judgmental and I wanted to point this out. This should be a family experience to people, and people should not come here and see people being interrogated. If this person did not want to put his personal info out there, regardless if what he said actually happened or not, it is wrong in order to get private information on a public forum.

My parents have a cottage in Pentwater. How do the local LEO's take to OC there?

Eliteedge_7 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 12, 2012, 01:47:37 AM »

Never had a problem in pentwater. Ever since the New Era incident with the Marine being detaind not one LEO in ocean has said one word to me about open carry .

CV67PAT · « **Reply #43 on:** October 12, 2012, 08:36:09 AM »

Quote from: Eliteedge_7 on October 11, 2012, 02:28:29 PM

so I have to post every day to meet your approval. I believe in ones right to privacy is all.

I believe in privacy also. Especially in a public arena. Everyone that speaks publicly should expect it to be private.

ocdetroit · « **Reply #44 on:** October 12, 2012, 11:48:33 AM »

+1 PAT. carry On.

lars · « **Reply #45 on:** October 15, 2012, 08:42:38 PM »

On the topic. I have been around some time ,but not a poster. The story was a good one ! And after looking through so many stories on the

site over time , People want to know the area or the near a bouts to see if others encountered the same thing in the area, or who could

have problems in the future as it being a hot spot. Anyhow its up to one to say were they are from . Best of luck

autosurgeon · « **Reply #46 on:** October 15, 2012, 09:45:32 PM »

Quote from: Eliteedge_7 on October 12, 2012, 01:47:37 AM

Never had a problem in pentwater. Ever since the New Era incident with the Marine being detaind not one LEO in ocean has said one word to me about open carry .

Just to set the record straight he was national guard. I was one of those that rode up there and shook the tree and spoke to the locals and media.

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2

autosurgeon · « **Reply #47 on:** October 15, 2012, 09:49:48 PM »

As for why I was so determined to know where the OP was posting from. It relates to a number of unsubstantiated claims of mistreatment that have been posted over the years. Some have led to other OCers being made to feel like fools when they went after the people or agency they thought was the problem. Finally it took me less than 20 seconds googling his user name to not only figure out who he was but also where he works. So really the cloak and dagger was unnecessary.

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2

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Author Topic: Stopped For Open Carry Last Night (Read 30616 times)