Author Topic: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case  (Read 38796 times)

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Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2012, 11:12:26 PM »
You do realize an appeal to SCOTUS isn't by "right". You have to convince them why they should hear the case. Good luck without a lawyer.

Who doesn't have a lawyer?

Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2012, 11:22:27 PM »
You do realize an appeal to SCOTUS isn't by "right". You have to convince them why they should hear the case. Good luck without a legitimate case.

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Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2012, 11:26:52 PM »
You do realize an appeal to SCOTUS isn't by "right". You have to convince them why they should hear the case. Good luck without a legitimate case.

FIFY

I still have to lose in the 6th circuit. If I do, my lawsuit will be one of the few to be before the high court next year if 4 justices agree to hear it.

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 11:30:54 PM »
The other cases which could be in front of the court involve criminals or licensing schemes. My case is civil regarding the actual carry of arms. Where and how is something I believe the justices will want to hear.

Offline METL

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 04:52:22 PM »
Wow... rough crowd up in this joint...   


While I certainly don't agree with the orange flash hider or whatever, the man made no claims that it was a fake gun.  He outright admitted it was real when asked.  I have no idea what his intent was...


However, it was still pretty messed up that they stopped him a second time, especially with guns pointed at him.   The stop could have been successfully done without actually pointing at him.  Low ready or pointing off to the side would have been just as well.


Anyways, time will tell what the judges think.  The "they were professional" comment isn't as damning as you guys portray...   they can be nice as pie as they illegally arrest you... doesn't excuse the illegal arrest and detainment.  I think we all know that.


They're really hanging their hat on the camo...     If I get arrested for OC and I happen to have on my camo shorts and some flip flops, am I going to be treated like some lunatic playing army? 


You guys can disagree with the OP because he clearly made some mistakes and had some questionable judgement calls, but you can't say with a straight face that the po-po handled this one A1-top notch by any stretch. 


THe cops screwed up.  I don't believe they had RAS for the 2nd stop, regardless of whether they thought it was "weird" or "strange" that his gun had an orange tip, or that he was wearing a camo jacket.  He readily admitted it was real, seemed to readily admit his identity, so aside from those 2 things, you have a guy OCing a rifle.  They may have had questions of whether it was legal or not, but I think without PC they have to err on the side that it's legal until they can prove otherwise.   Or even so, ASK TO SEE IT...   don't point shotguns and stuff.  Ridiculous. 

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 05:24:21 PM »
Not only did I tell the first park ranger the gun was real, I showed him my handgun carry permit, I told him why it was a handgun, I told him the barrel length, and stated I would meet the guy at the parking lot. Further, that first (armed) ranger followed me and stated in the depositions that he never felt threatened. If, ranger walsh saw someone put up his hands why didn't ranger walsh (armed with a gun) feel threatened? I have a full 28 minutes of audio when I walked through the park and no one yells or screams. I wasn't running through the woods hiding, I merely walked the main trail. I didn't carry the handgun at "port arms", the record shows the gun was slung tightly (cinched down) against my chest. I don't mind talking to the cops, but when I am held against my will for 2.5 hours, have a shotgun pointed at my face, and illegally searched I have a problem. It sounded as if judge Griffin was okay with the detention as long as I wasn't beaten. LOL If I would not of had my audio recorder this lawsuit would never had happened because the rangers would have invented their own version of the events.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2012, 08:42:35 AM »
The "crowd" was rough for both sides and I'm pretty sure that was on purpose. My guess is they really wanted to test each side to see how well it held up.

Kwikrnu, I do agree that you wanted some attention, but AFAIK, that isn't illegal. What I absolutely cannot stand is the ignorance of people that claim someone want's attention just because they are carrying a recorder. That makes just as much sense as guns have one logical purpose; to kill people.

Your lawyer did not argue the points well. Perhaps he knows better than us, but there were a lot of facts that I thought were important and were either in the court documents or you have given us here, that did not come out during oral arguments. Of course, as we've seen recently in the ACA case in front of the SCOTUS, oral arguments can mean very little.

Here is something I want to know: how far under the 12" limit does a firearm have to be to not constitute RAS? If your firearm was 11.25" would it have been obvious enough? How about 10"? 8"?

Here is another important thing: I don't think the rangers knew anything about the 12" limit until you told them. They tried to point to a number of reasons to why they stopped you. Wearing camo, holding an AK, orange tip, people scared, carrying a recorder. The problem is, none of those things in and of themselves is illegal, nor added together are they illegal.

Did this situation constitute a "chat"? Probably. But as others here have asked, what was their RAS to detain? Kwikrnu, what reason did they give you? Not afterwards, but right away? If they wanted to make sure your firearm was less than 12", why did that take 2.5 hrs? At this time, I can only come up with two answers. First, they didn't know about the limit and therefore the length of your firearm could not have created RAS, or second, you prolonged the encounter.

Good luck, for our sake.

Offline Marty

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2012, 09:00:16 AM »
Because he painted his tip orange. Is this what this is all about?  There is a Wisconsin company that disguises deadly firearms with bright paints and camouflage. ( Pimp my Gun)  There specialty is the "The Bloomberg Collection."  I many not agree with it, but this is not that uncommon and not against the law.

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2012, 09:15:25 AM »
The "crowd" was rough for both sides and I'm pretty sure that was on purpose. My guess is they really wanted to test each side to see how well it held up.

Kwikrnu, I do agree that you wanted some attention, but AFAIK, that isn't illegal. What I absolutely cannot stand is the ignorance of people that claim someone want's attention just because they are carrying a recorder. That makes just as much sense as guns have one logical purpose; to kill people.

Your lawyer did not argue the points well. Perhaps he knows better than us, but there were a lot of facts that I thought were important and were either in the court documents or you have given us here, that did not come out during oral arguments. Of course, as we've seen recently in the ACA case in front of the SCOTUS, oral arguments can mean very little.

Here is something I want to know: how far under the 12" limit does a firearm have to be to not constitute RAS? If your firearm was 11.25" would it have been obvious enough? How about 10"? 8"?

Here is another important thing: I don't think the rangers knew anything about the 12" limit until you told them. They tried to point to a number of reasons to why they stopped you. Wearing camo, holding an AK, orange tip, people scared, carrying a recorder. The problem is, none of those things in and of themselves is illegal, nor added together are they illegal.

Did this situation constitute a "chat"? Probably. But as others here have asked, what was their RAS to detain? Kwikrnu, what reason did they give you? Not afterwards, but right away? If they wanted to make sure your firearm was less than 12", why did that take 2.5 hrs? At this time, I can only come up with two answers. First, they didn't know about the limit and therefore the length of your firearm could not have created RAS, or second, you prolonged the encounter.

Good luck, for our sake.

That day there was no discussion about the orange barrel nut, past the comments of the first ranger. As I have stated over the last couple of years a toy gun was legal to possess in the park and a real handgun with a permit.
The rangers did not know the law on barrel length before or during the stop. I told them the specific code and they ignored me. It was then that I was allowed to use my phone and call dispatch. I was still being held at that point but was allowed to stand and was guarded by a ranger.
In the depositions the ranger who pointed the shotgun at me stated he did not agree with the law.

The fact is that cops invent RAS or PC after the stop in most cases. They had 2 years to invent as many excuses as they wanted.  They have still came up short because nothing I did was illegal, and nothing I did gave them RAS of criminal activity.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2012, 10:17:46 AM »
I would like to repeat my question. What was the reason they gave you for stopping you? Right away, in the first minute or two. That portion of your recording didn't seem to make it into your youtube post.

One portion that did make it into the post was you talking to an operator. You stated that they didn't believe your firearm was in fact a pistol. At no point in time did I ever hear them bring the length up, thus it sounds to me like they were just completely ignorant of the law.

Also, why did the encounter last as long as it did? According to the amended complaint Ward stopped you, after a few minutes Metro police arrived and asked Ward to release you because the weapon was legal, however, Ward continued to detain you. (Why?) After about one hour Metro requested you sign a citation for unlawful possession of a weapon. (After telling you it was legal?) Then even though they thought it was illegal, they still let you leave with it?

Please understand that it seems as though there is a lot of missing information here. I should note that I do understand that it is possible that the situation was just that screwed up.

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2012, 10:38:49 PM »
I would like to repeat my question. What was the reason they gave you for stopping you? Right away, in the first minute or two. That portion of your recording didn't seem to make it into your youtube post.

One portion that did make it into the post was you talking to an operator. You stated that they didn't believe your firearm was in fact a pistol. At no point in time did I ever hear them bring the length up, thus it sounds to me like they were just completely ignorant of the law.

Also, why did the encounter last as long as it did? According to the amended complaint Ward stopped you, after a few minutes Metro police arrived and asked Ward to release you because the weapon was legal, however, Ward continued to detain you. (Why?) After about one hour Metro requested you sign a citation for unlawful possession of a weapon. (After telling you it was legal?) Then even though they thought it was illegal, they still let you leave with it?

Please understand that it seems as though there is a lot of missing information here. I should note that I do understand that it is possible that the situation was just that screwed up.

My audio recorder batteries died so all I have is what was posted. They gave no reason for the stop other than because my handgun was a rifle. They even filled out a citation citing me breaking the law because I carried a rifle in a park. They did not know the definition of a rifle or a pistol or a handgun. They were just making up laws at the time. There was no justification for the stop.

Offline Bronson

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2012, 05:34:27 AM »
The fact is that cops invent RAS or PC after the stop in most cases.

A retired officer I know has told me "There's no such thing as bad police work, only bad report writing."

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline TheQ

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Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2012, 09:53:35 AM »
Why do I carry?

I carry to defend myself and family. On the off chance someone notices, bonus -- they see a reasonably well dressed respectable looking gentlemen with a *handgun*. Yay for good guys.

I don't open carry for the purpose of getting attention. My parents loved me growing up...they are still married to each other today (over 50 years).

I'd ask the OP: what was your reason for going out that day tge way you did?

Self defense?
Promote 2A?
Get personal attention?
Bait police into harassing you so you could sink 10k+ into an unwinnable lawsuit?

The answer lies within you. For tge record, I don't care what tge answer is. Every person should ask themselves: why do I carry thusly?

Then they should reflect on that answer.

This post is my personal thoughts only and not anything in any official capacity.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2012, 09:59:48 AM »
In other words, it should be illegal to bear arms while wearing a camouflage jacket? It should be illegal to carry an AK pistol?  It should be illegal to audio record the cops? Illegal to paint a firearm?

Offline TucTom

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2012, 11:14:55 AM »
I've been reading this from the beginning and I have only one question I don't think has been answered. I don't want to get into the Pro/Con issues. The question I have is why did you choose to paint the weapon? Orange tip that is.

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2012, 11:17:39 AM »
Because I can.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2012, 11:23:23 AM »
Because when I carried a handgun with my daughters in the park previously, I didn't get any attention. So I painted the tip of my Draco AK-47 pistol orange, donned my camo costume, strapped my gun to my chest and went traipsing through the park to get some real attention. And it worked!

I fixed it for you. There is the true reason why the orange paint was used! Not because he could. But because he is an attention whore.
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Offline TheQ

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Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2012, 11:34:05 AM »
In other words, it should be illegal to bear arms while wearing a camouflage jacket? It should be illegal to carry an AK pistol?  It should be illegal to audio record the cops? Illegal to paint a firearm?

I don't think I said any of those things. If this comment was directed at me, I'd charge you are putting words in my mouth. That's not very nice!
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2012, 11:37:04 AM »
He's got a better answer to give. Orange is highly visible to humans but hard for deer to see. Obviously he uses a shorter magazine in the fall and he uses this weapon for hunting -- so he painted the tip orange for added safety!
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline kwikrnu

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Re: Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to hear 2nd Amendment Case
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2012, 11:38:53 AM »
Why do I carry?

I carry to defend myself and family. On the off chance someone notices, bonus -- they see a reasonably well dressed respectable looking gentlemen with a *handgun*. Yay for good guys.

I don't open carry for the purpose of getting attention. My parents loved me growing up...they are still married to each other today (over 50 years).

What is your point?

I'd ask the OP: what was your reason for going out that day tge way you did?

Self defense?
Promote 2A?
Get personal attention?
Bait police into harassing you so you could sink 10k+ into an unwinnable lawsuit?

The answer lies within you. For tge record, I don't care what tge answer is. Every person should ask themselves: why do I carry thusly?

Then they should reflect on that answer.

This post is my personal thoughts only and not anything in any official capacity.

I lawfully carried a handgun for self-defense. If you don't like how I did it then change the law.