Author Topic: Open Carry encounter in an unemployment office (Read 22758 times)

CV67PAT · « **on:** July 12, 2012, 10:01:15 PM »

I open carry practically all the time. I do it primarily for convenience. I rarely get comments. But whenever I do it is generally questions about the lawfullness from people interested in the practice.

I don't post my experiences because I just don't want to leave a trail of places I frequent. And it would be pretty boring to read about where I go.

However, yesterday I had my first real interaction with some "authority figures" that did not like it that I was carrying a gun on their turf. Here is the story. This is not verbatum. I don't carry a recorder.

As some know I generally mexican carry a stainless1911 (not to be confused with brainless1911). However, I keep a belt slide holster in my vehicles for when I open carry in accordance with the required statutes for OC in PFZs.

Yesterday I went to the Macomb Community Services complex behind the Macomb County Sheriff's Department. Seeing school buses parked in the back of the complex parking lot, I donned my holster in order to OC properly in case I was on some sort of school property. I entered the building and made my way to the area of the Unemployment Insurance Agency office. I approached the security guard (Guard 1) seated at a desk in the waiting area and this is how things went...

CV67PAT: Can you tell me where the unemployment office is?
GUARD 1: Right behind you by that guard (GUARD 2) over there. Go see her and she will show you.
CV67PAT: Thank you.

I turn and walk over to GUARD 2. I do this in front of about 100 people that are waiting for assistance with the unemployment office and the DHS office. I observe the requisite sign on the door leading to the DHS offices stating that firearms are not allowed past that door.

CV67PAT: Where is the unemployment office?
Guard 2: Through that door (not the DHS door) on the left.
CV67PAT: Thank you.

I enter the door to the unemployment office and see a number ticket dispenser and a sign with instructions to take a number and have a seat in the lobby. I follow the instructions and go back out to the lobby and have a seat. Within moments GUARD 1 comes over to me to.

GUARD 1: Who are you with?
CV67PAT: I'm not with anyone. I'm here by myself.
GUARD 1: I mean who do you work for.
CV67PAT: I don't work for anyone. That's why I am here at the unemployment office.
GUARD 1: Do you work for the police?
CV67PAT: I don't work for anyone. I am unemployed.
GUARD 1: Then you are just a private citizen?
CV67PAT: Yes.
GUARD 1: Then you aren't allowed to have a firearm in a state office.
CV67PAT: Yes I can.
GUARD 1: No you can't.
CV67PAT: Yes I can. I am fully cognizant of the firearm laws in the State of Michigan. I am here for a lawful purpose. And I am conducting myself lawfully.
Guard 1: You will have to take you gun outside.
CV67PAT: I will not.

GUARD 1 goes back to his desk. A few moments latter GUARD 2 approaches me and gives me the finger wag to come to her. I give her the finger wave back for her to come to me. She comes over and asks me to go with her. I follow towards the exit. I stop about 30 feet from the door.

CV67PAT: I'm not leaving the building. You can't make me leave either.
GUARD 2: You are going to have to take your gun outside and come back in. You are scaring the people. You can't have a gun in here because DHS has their office here.
CV67PAT: I am not here for DHS. I am here for the unemployment office.
GUARD 2: DHS and unemployment are affiliates of each other. So you can't have a gun in here.
CV67PAT: DHS is not affiliated in any way with UIA. DHS is the Department of Human Services. It is a separate from UIA which is an agency of the Department of Economic Growth. If you think I am doing something unlawful, call the police.
GUARD 2: You are scarring the clerks.
CV67PAT: That is not my problem. I have not seen anyone get up and run out in fear. I am here for a lawful purpose and I am conducting myself lawfully. If you think that I am breaking the law, call the police.
Guard 2: You think you're the first person to carry a gun in here? Every one else doesn't have a problem taking it outside. Why do you?
CV67PAT: Because I am conducting myself lawfully. You have no authority over me. I do not have to comply with your unlawful commands. Again, I am conducting myself lawfully. Call the police if you have a problem with what I am doing. I am not leaving the building either.

I returned to my seat in the lobby. Now there is some interest from those around me. One guy said he didn't even know I had a gun until the guards started making a scene. Meanwhile the two guards are communicating with each other via walkie talkies at a distance of about 50 feet from each other. It's as if they were doing some sort of surveillance of me. LMFAO!!! About 10 minutes passes and I am approached by a woman...

UIA MANAGER: You can't have that gun in here. We will not serve you unless you take your gun outside.
CV67PAT: I will not take my gun outside. I will not leave the building. Call the police if you think I am doing something wrong.
UIA MANAGER: You will not be served, unless you take your gun outside.
CV67PAT: I will not take my gun outside. I will not leave the building before I have completed the business that I cam here for. If you have a problem call the police. Otherwise, I will be sitting right here awaiting my turn.

The UIA MANAGER walks away. Clearly thinking she has gotten the upper hand. I remain in my seat and watch the two guards play surveillance. I continue to talk with a couple of the other people about Michigan firearm laws and the Birmingham case. At this point I am about 50th in queue for service. And at the rate they are going, I have about a 4 hour wait ahead of me. After about 15 minutes I am getting tired of waiting and am contemplating just leaving for the day. The UIA MANAGER again approaches. This time she has a cell phone in her hand...

UIA MANAGER: Will you talk to the person on the phone please?
CV67PAT: Certainly.

The UIA MANAGER hands me the cell phone. I am expecting to hear a police officer on the other end. I am surprised when the other party introduces herself as the state's lead UIA customer service supervisor. The UIA MANAGER is standing over me with a smug look.

CV67PAT: Hello.
SUPERVISOR: (Introduces herself and states her title.) I understand that you are there with a firearm. You certainly understand that there is some concern by the staff.
CV67PAT: I can appreciate that. But at the same time, they have to understand that I am not doing anything unlawful. They however have stated that they will refuse me service. You obviously know that once that happens I will seek remedies.
SUPERVISOR: I understand that completely. We don't want that to happen. What is it that you are in the office for?

I tell the SUPERVISOR what it is that I am there for. The SUPERVISOR has another party join us in a conference call. We go over my situation and it is resolved. During the discussion, I can see a lot of people looking at me getting special treatment. Of course I am speaking just loud enough so as to not create a scene. Yet everyone can hear me getting special treatment.

SUPERVISOR: Is there anything else I can help you with?
CV67PAT: No that takes care of everything. I appreciate you assistance in resolving my problems I was having. Thank you very much.
SUPERVISOR: Would you let me talk to UIA MANAGER please?
CV67PAT: Certainly. She is right here.

I hand the phone to the UIA MANAGER. She now has a totally different look on her face. So do the 50 people in queue ahead of me.

CV67PAT: (TO UIA MANAGER as I hand her the phone) Thank you for your assistance. Have a nice day.

I stand up from my seat and depart the building.

Conclusion: If you want prompt service ahead of everyone else in line at the Unemployment Insurance Agency, just open carry. It worked for me. However, YMMV

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2012, 07:32:42 AM »

Outstanding!

gryphon · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2012, 11:56:56 AM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on July 12, 2012, 10:01:15 PM

A few moments latter GUARD 2 approaches me and gives me the finger wag to come to her. I give her the finger wave back for her to come to me.

LMAO. +1 karma for you. I'll come back in six hours and give you another one for the rest of your story. It was great!

Pond Scum · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2012, 08:08:19 AM »

Really great story!

northofnowhere · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2012, 12:16:46 PM »

That is the greatest OC story I have ever heard.

ocdetroit · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2012, 07:32:33 PM »

+ 1 Carry On.

METL · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:20:23 PM »

Ugh... I am so disgusted with myself... I had to give Pat a cheer for that one... LMAO!!!!

Nice work... I especially like the "if you think I am breaking any laws call the police" line.... LoL!

LIKE A BOSS!!!!

yance · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:27:17 PM »

I got a laugh out of this part of the conversation:

GUARD 1: I mean who do you work for.
CV67PAT: I don't work for anyone. That's why I am here at the unemployment office.
GUARD 1: Do you work for the police?
CV67PAT: I don't work for anyone. I am unemployed.

Sounds like you were working with some real winners Pat, lol.

TheQ · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:53:17 PM »

Quote from: yance on July 17, 2012, 07:27:17 PM

I got a laugh out of this part of the conversation:

GUARD 1: I mean who do you work for.
CV67PAT: I don't work for anyone. That's why I am here at the unemployment office.
GUARD 1: Do you work for the police?
CV67PAT: I don't work for anyone. I am unemployed.

Sounds like you were working with some real winners Pat, lol.

Maybe Pat could get this guard's job. He sounds more than qualified for it....

yance · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2012, 09:23:29 PM »

lol, then he wouldnt have to visit the unemployment office as the "unemployed" anymore, sounds like they already got off to a good start.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:36:41 AM »

Quote from: yance on July 17, 2012, 09:23:29 PM

lol, then he wouldnt have to visit the unemployment office as the "unemployed" anymore, sounds like they already got off to a good start.

I wouldn't have time to troll either.

yance · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:43:59 PM »

Troll here or the unemployment office?

AAMitch · « **Reply #12 on:** September 04, 2012, 08:46:43 PM »

Very Good!

RichardFudnavis · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2012, 06:52:06 AM »

There are currently no extended benefits in place for 2013. Workers who are laid-off starting in July 2012 are only eligible for a maximum of 26 weeks of state benefits, depending on location, unless Congress passes new legislation to extend unemployment.

TheQ · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2012, 09:22:33 AM »

Quote from: RichardFudnavis on September 06, 2012, 06:52:06 AM

There are currently no extended benefits in place for 2013. Workers who are laid-off starting in July 2012 are only eligible for a maximum of 26 weeks of state benefits, depending on location, unless Congress passes new legislation to extend unemployment.

I hate to say it, but 2 years of unemployment sounds more like welfare to me

CV67PAT · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2012, 09:38:01 AM »

Quote from: TheQ on September 06, 2012, 09:22:33 AM

I hate to say it, but 2 years of unemployment sounds more like welfare to me

That's easy for someone bellied up to the government trough to say.

TheQ · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2012, 09:44:24 AM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on September 06, 2012, 09:38:01 AM

That's easy for someone bellied up to the government trough to say.

Indeed. Oink oink.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #17 on:** September 06, 2012, 09:54:12 AM »

And for $300 a week, I'd never get a job.

TheQ · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2012, 09:58:43 AM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on September 06, 2012, 09:54:12 AM

And for $300 a week, I'd never get a job.

If only $300 meant what it used to mean. That's a cap that hasn't been raised in quite a while. Prior to 1971, $300 could buy 8 ounces of gold. Yesterday I just bought an ounce for $1693

CV67PAT · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2012, 10:03:14 AM »

Quote from: TheQ on September 06, 2012, 09:58:43 AM

If only $300 meant what it used to mean. That's a cap that hasn't been raised in quite a while. Prior to 1971, $300 could buy 8 ounces of gold. Yesterday I just bought an ounce for $1693

$300 doesn't buy as much lead as it used to either. And lead is a much more precious metal than gold. Gold is a wast of money. Lead will be the currency of the future.

Shadow Bear · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2012, 12:14:53 PM »

Quote from: CV67PAT on September 06, 2012, 10:03:14 AM

$300 doesn't buy as much lead as it used to either. And lead is a much more precious metal than gold. Gold is a wast of money. Lead will be the currency of the future.

Yeah, I'm heavily invested in precious metals- lead, brass and blued steel.

prospectpuppet · « **Reply #21 on:** September 21, 2012, 12:03:47 AM »

Quick side note/question. By the security guards asking you to take it outside, wouldn't that fall under the private property rules? Or would the institution have to have their policy publicly posted? Being that I'm a cpl holder and I can legally open carry on a college campus, if that campus doesn't have a "no firearms" sign on the door, do I have to comply when asked to leave? Or can I do what pat did here? Basically, how can I tell who can and cannot decide to legally remove me from a building even though I'm legal? Thanks in advance for any input.

Brad

WilDChilD · « **Reply #22 on:** September 21, 2012, 08:32:46 AM »

Quote from: prospectpuppet on September 21, 2012, 12:03:47 AM

Basically, how can I tell who can and cannot decide to legally remove me from a building even though I'm legal?
Brad

Read thousands of hours of MI law. Colleges are a different breed so be extra careful when carry on a campus. With out specifics of which college it will be hard to answer more, but read their rules and laws (I believe most make their own laws).

gryphon · « **Reply #23 on:** September 21, 2012, 08:30:12 PM »

Quote from: prospectpuppet on September 21, 2012, 12:03:47 AM

By the security guards asking you to take it outside, wouldn't that fall under the private property rules?

Unemployment offices are not private property.

TheQ · « **Reply #24 on:** September 21, 2012, 08:46:48 PM »

Quote from: gryphon on September 21, 2012, 08:30:12 PM

Unemployment offices are not private property.

Many are leased buildings.

gryphon · « **Reply #25 on:** September 21, 2012, 09:16:19 PM »

Good point. So was the security guard a representative of the state office or the private building owner? Since the guard was not employed by the building owner...

CV67PAT · « **Reply #26 on:** September 22, 2012, 01:12:10 PM »

Quote from: TheQ on September 21, 2012, 08:46:48 PM

Many are leased buildings.

So if a property is leased from someone that has a policy of no firearms, the lessee would have to abide by that?

Quote from: gryphon on September 21, 2012, 09:16:19 PM

Good point. So was the security guard a representative of the state office or the private building owner? Since the guard was not employed by the building owner...

Who was the security guard employed by?

gryphon · « **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »

State government?

CV67PAT · « **Reply #28 on:** September 23, 2012, 06:19:27 PM »

Quote from: gryphon on September 23, 2012, 05:49:08 PM

State government?

Which department of the state?

gryphon · « **Reply #29 on:** September 23, 2012, 07:33:09 PM »

LARA, I think.

CV67PAT · « **Reply #30 on:** September 23, 2012, 08:33:58 PM »

actually it is a mutli-jurisdictional facility. DHS, VA, and other agencies are tenants in that public facility.

TheQ · « **Reply #31 on:** September 23, 2012, 08:42:38 PM »

DTMB (Department of Technology, Management and Budget) controls all state owned and leased buildings and provides the security for them.

TheQ · « **Reply #32 on:** September 25, 2012, 09:18:02 AM »

I just spoke to a gentleman via phone that had a similar experience: he was told by a security guard that he wasn't going to get served unless he disarmed. I invited him to join our Internet forum to see what happened in this discussion and invite him to contribute his experience.

ETA: he says he also called the NRA and the NRA said they will send a "cease and desist" letter...interesting. That seems unlike our experience with the NRA. I wonder if they will actually do it?

I hope he shows up here with more details for discussion.

METL · « **Reply #33 on:** September 25, 2012, 09:41:42 AM »

How did you meet this guy? Let me guess, struck up conversation because you were OCing?

Another benefit of OC (we've already discussed) is the conversations you have that you never would have!!!

TheQ · « **Reply #34 on:** September 25, 2012, 10:19:55 AM »

Quote from: METL on September 25, 2012, 09:41:42 AM

How did you meet this guy? Let me guess, struck up conversation because you were OCing?

Another benefit of OC (we've already discussed) is the conversations you have that you never would have!!!

Actually, he called the Michigan Open Carry hotline # on our website.

METL · « **Reply #35 on:** September 25, 2012, 10:35:03 AM »

Oh well that's even better... nice to know that it's "working"...

CV67PAT · « **Reply #36 on:** September 25, 2012, 11:23:38 AM »

There was a follow up encounter, 2 weeks after my initial. it went pretty much the same. I was going to post it seperately.

Being told by the guard and the office manager that I wouldn't get served while armed didn't create an event that I could file a grievance against. I hadn't been grieved yet. Now, had I waited until my turn and then was refused service, I would have had grounds to file a formal complaint against the employee.

The office being in a public or private facility has no significance to me.

Just like my rights to lawfully use property I lease isn't affected by the property owner's edicts, the State's right to establish or maintain it's own laws doesn't change when it leases property.

Just like renting an apartment.

I have had a similar encounter at an office of the Secretary of State. A customer with a CPL complained to the manager that I was violating the law. She came to discuss it with me, instead of calling the police, because she felt that I probably knew more than the complainer. Which I did. (Because I am a know it all.

) That was in a leased facility. At another SoS office, the guard saw me armed and didn't so much as give it a second look.

I feel that many times these people are somewhat aware of the law. But they like to make opinionated statements of what the law is to appear "knowledgeable" about it.

In my encounters, I was confident that I knew the law adequately to conduct myself in a lawful manner. i didn't spout the "it's my right" mantra. i simply repeatedly stated that "I was lawfully present." and that "I had a lawful reason" to be there, ant that i was "conducting myself lawfully." This was backed up with "If you think I am doing something wrong, call the police."