Thanks to Gryphon for transcripting this. not a perfect encounter but a successful one. I did not get arrested! And I voted... you can read all my faults below but for a first encounter -- I survived and walked away. In fact -- I drove away...
To all of you who have helped me along the way --- Carry On!
T
ranscript between VOTER (with Voter jr.)
and OAK PARK, MI - —LEO S,
August 7, 2012- Scene begins after voting the Michigan Primaries,
leaving the School and about to enter their vehicle.
This encounter lasted 13 1/2 minutes and begins with my family walking back to the Van.
VOTER: That was fast. That was painless and problem free.
VOTER JR: Yeah <unintelligible>
VOTER JR: Just leave the guy alone, he’ll leave faster.
VOTER: I was told…
—LEO 1: Sir!
VOTER: I was told they might…
—LEO 1: Sir!
VOTER: Yes?
—LEO 1: I need you to come over here for just a second.
VOTER: Ha, I was just talking about that.
—LEO 1: How you doin’?
VOTER: I’m doing good.
—LEO 1: <unintelligible> a school. <Car door slams>
VOTER: You are aware of the Michigan State Police update?
—LEO 1: Well…
VOTER: That I was completely legal?
—LEO 1: The Michigan State Police on open carry for the state, but school zones are still exempt from all the weapons.
VOTER: Except with a CPL. Not all weapons, concealed weapons.
—LEO 1: Open carry…
VOTER: Is legal...
—LEO 1: … is legal in the state…
VOTER: …with a CPL, yes.
—LEO 1: No, open carry is okay without a CPL.
VOTER: Open carry in a school is legal with a CPL.
—LEO 1: A CPL is contradictory to open carry.
VOTER: No, it is not.
—LEO 1: A CPL is for you to carry concealed.
VOTER: The Michigan State update…I’ve got a copy of it, too…I’ve got a copy of it.
—LEO 1: You can bring out the update, I have no problem with that, but you’re still in a school zone…
VOTER: Yep.
—LEO 1: …and as of right now we get legal updates every morning at our roll call…
VOTER: Okay.
—LEO 1: …and we have not gotten anything further on that.
VOTER: Can you tell me when it changed? Because I already contacted, ah, your previous guy in charge of public safety. He assured me that…
—LEO 1: <unintelligible> the Director?
VOTER: …the one before this recent election.
—LEO 1: Uh, there’s a good <unintelligible>
VOTER: And anyway, I was told that, you know, the Michigan update--the police update--still applies. Open carry with a CPL is still legal. I go to meetings in Hazel Park with no problem. The school says…
—LEO 1: I understand that, but the part about the CPL is that you don’t need a CPL to open carry.
VOTER: But you do need a CPL to open carry in a federal pistol free zone. And with a CPL you are allowed to.
—LEO 1: Well, again they are contradictory. There’s no reason to have a CPL…
VOTER: That’s not a contradiction.
—LEO 1: …to open carry.
VOTER: A CPL is for concealed.
—LEO 1: That’s correct.
VOTER: I’m not concealing, am I?
—LEO 1: No, no one said you were concealing. But the point is a CPL is already forbidden in school zones.
VOTER: A CPL is exempt…
—LEO 1: No.
VOTER: Concealed carry is forbidden in a school zone. A CPL exempts you from [un]-concealed carry in a school zone. Is that also correct?
—LEO 1: No, not that I know of. A CPL is concealed carry, that’s what it is.
VOTER: And this is not concealed, is it?
—LEO 1: I know that. I’m just saying that doesn’t change the open carry laws. A CPL does not <unintelligible>
VOTER: Do we need to go over Michigan State law?
—LEO 1: I do not believe so.
VOTER: If you’d like to go over the MCLs on it…
—LEO 1: Me?
<Crosstalk from police radio>
—LEO 1: …and <unintelligible> more than willing to take it up with them. I’m simply telling you the fact that the school called, and we still have every right to stop you…
VOTER: Not a problem.
—LEO 1: …and as long as you’re not going to be verbally combative about it…
VOTER: No, I’m ready to go.
—LEO 1: I understand that.
VOTER: I would just like to clarify this for the future…I did call. To be responsible I did call about it, and I want to make sure…
—LEO 1: We don’t get everything from our director, but we do get the Michigan State Police updates. Do you remember any recent updates…
VOTER: No. This is not recent and it has not been overwritten.
—LEO 1: And you’re getting all the ones that have happened before then…
VOTER: Right.
—LEO 1: And if it, if for some reason, if there is some sort of exemption in there, that’s not one that was passed along to us. Because a CPL is contradictory to open carry.
VOTER: To you, personally.
—LEO 1: No, not to me personally.
VOTER: Because your previous director did, and I’m not being combative, your previous director did assure me that, For one -- I would not legally have an issue, he did say, however someone at the school probably will call, and so be cooperative, police will arrive, be cooperative, and so I’m going to be cooperative, but I want to be assured that this is not a problem in the future, and if there is a change I want to be aware of it as well. That’s the only reason why I’m waiting, not to be…
—LEO 1: All I’m trying to say is if you look at it, if you look at it with logic, CPLs are not allowed in a school zone, so why would it change it for an open carry? Those are two separate issues.
VOTER: And the Attorney General’s opinion is not logical?
—LEO 1: Because they are two separate animals. I’m asking you.
VOTER: That’s what you’re saying.
—LEO 1: I’m asking you.
VOTER: You’re saying the Attorney General’s opinion in this state is that a CPL holder is exempt with a CPL to open carry in a federal pistol free zone... <is illogical>.
—LEO 1: I am saying yes, until I see that on paperwork, the totally opposite.
VOTER: Okay, okay.
—LEO 1: So a CPL wouldn’t have any bearing on open carry.
VOTER: So you might want to bring this, because he probably won’t, it’s Update #86.
—LEO 1: Okay.
VOTER: So you’ll want to have him have a copy…
—LEO 2: So you’ve done this before, huh?
VOTER: No, I just, like I said, I called, I talked to the director, your previous director on …
—LEO 1: No, that’s public works.
VOTER: And I talked to him before, and at the time this is what I was informed. And it has become a big issue lately with what went on in Birmingham and stuff, and so I would be stupid to do something that I believe in and not understand the full ramifications. You go to, you go to training. Why? Because you take your job seriously and you want to know the ramifications, and your obligations.
—LEO 2: It should be, I know it’s not, you say that. This is why some vote and some don’t vote.
VOTER: We’ll wait, I can read various parts. I’m not sure that will matter because it probably needs to come from your supervisor.
—LEO 1: Oh no, we just need to see the part that says a CPL exempts you from that, that school zone. If you can find that part of it, that would be great.
VOTER: Okay, MCL 750.234d where it lists the places that you’re not allowed to carry concealed like a theater, hospitals, does not apply—this is exactly what your copy will say—does not apply, unlawful premises listed in MCL 750.234d does not apply to persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person with a valid CPL may carry non-concealed pistols in the areas described in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d. That is what your actual update will say.
—LEO 1: I’m just going to look at the date on yours.
VOTER: That’s fine. And it has not been—it’s 2010—and it has not been contradicted since then. If it has, it has not went public yet, which would make it extremely recent, and I would like to know for my benefit, and your guys’.
VOTER: Badge #1999, And your name.
—LEO 1: Officer Wickham.
VOTER: And your name is?
—LEO 2: Urbanowski.
VOTER: Hello. You the supervisor?
—LEO 3: <unintelligible>
VOTER: Well, I wanted to tell you, I am exercising my right to vote.
—LEO 3: Okay.
VOTER: I happen to be carrying openly, which previous contact with, uh, your, I don’t know what you call it, your guy who’s in charge of all the public safety…
—LEO 1: The director.
VOTER: …this was the previous one, that it would be okay, it’s legal, here’s the Michigan update…
—LEO 3: Okay.
VOTER: …that police probably would come if somebody from the school called, the police would show up because a lot of people don’t understand. I voted, I’m ready to go home. To my knowledge, according to this Michigan State Police update, I have not done anything wrong.
—LEO 3: Okay.
VOTER: I’m just trying to clarify that.
—LEO 3: Yeah, we’re just trying, we don’t know, because there are safe zones still, even though that doesn’t apply…
VOTER: Yes.
—LEO 3: …because it’s a school, okay, it’s a weapons-free zone. We’re just checking to make sure that it’s, open carry…
VOTER: With a CPL.
—LEO 3: …still applies. You have a CPL?
VOTER: Yes I do. I don’t have to show it, but I can show you if you would feel better seeing it.
—LEO 3: Well, we’re just trying to, because people are concerned because it’s a school, even though it’s an election. If you were just walking down the sidewalk it would be a different issue, you know what I’m saying?
VOTER: Yeah. Sidewalk’s not a problem, parking lot’s not a problem…
—LEO 3: Right. But because you went into a school we’re checking to see if it’s a violation of that open carry.
VOTER: Which, you can let him know it is not.
—LEO 3: What did you say?
VOTER: You can let him know <implying —LEO 1>, he wasn’t aware that it was not a violation.
—LEO 3: I didn’t say that, that it’s not a violation. I said we’ll talk to the prosecutor’s office to see their interpretation of the open carry, because it’s still a kind of new thing. That people can feel all, you know what I’m saying, where is it allowed and where is it not allowed?
VOTER: Does this update still apply?
—LEO 3: I don’t know, I have to look.
VOTER: It says Michigan State Police Update #86, it’s on December 2010 <My mistak - October>, it has the Attorney General’s opinion, he has a copy, you have a copy at your station, that’s quote authentic, that way you know there’s no tampering along those lines. Bottom of the back page <I only had page 1&2 backed> it talks about those exemptions.
—LEO 3: Actually if you do have your CPL on you, you do have to show it.
VOTER: Only for a traffic stop.
—LEO 1: You have to show it in this case here because it says those that are in possession of…
VOTER: I may…
—LEO 3: …it because we have to verify it.
VOTER: I may, I may, and I will if he wants to. But I don’t have to, but I…
—LEO 3: Well, but you don’t have to interrupt me before I try to finish what I tried to tell you. The exemption right there says those that are in possession of a valid CPL, you have to have it.
VOTER: Right.
—LEO 1: Well, it has to be verified.
VOTER: Legally…
—LEO 1: You can’t just walk up and say, “Well, I have one but I’m not going to show it to you,” and then I’m going to use that exemption.
VOTER: Legally I can.
—LEO 1: You have to understand we need your CPL.
VOTER: Legally I can, and that was the Combs case in Birmingham that just finished. Legally, no I do not have to, but I am more than willing to.
—LEO 1: The Birmingham case was that he was carrying around a long gun.
VOTER: No, the Birmingham case was because he was open carrying, simple as that, with no CPL, and he was open carrying. That’s all it was. And that’s how the case ended.
—LEO 1: Open carrying…
VOTER: There’s nothing wrong, open carrying a long gun…
—LEO 1: A regular person doesn’t need a CPL for open carrying.
VOTER: Right, he did nothing wrong.
—LEO 1: But I’m saying that’s not the case in this one. This, if you’re claiming an exemption, what it says, you have to be in possession of a valid CPL. So that part has to be verified. I can’t just take your word for it.
VOTER: Well, you can legally, but…
—LEO 1: No, we cannot. It has to be verified on the gun board that you actually have a valid one. People do get them to vote, and so we would have to verify that that’s part of what you’re carrying in here today.
<Police radio traffic>
VOTER: This actually helps, for all of our cases.
—LEO 1: We never said that it didn’t, anyway. But what I’m saying is on my end of it, also, to say that your going to claim an exemption and then you weren’t, you said I don’t have to, well that’s not true.
VOTER: The point of the exemption is, as you put it, I simply stated that it’s legal, and at the time you did not believe it was legal. So…
—LEO 1: And I said I needed to look at the update which you supplied, but at the same time using your own legal update it said you must be in possession of it, therefore I can’t take your word for it, you have to show proof of it.
VOTER: I’m saying the same thing. <holding my CPL and DL/ID>, I have them here and am willing to show them to you if itt will make you fell better.
—LEO 1: All right, you’re all set, sir. According to the statute, 28.42 MCL, that one there.
VOTER: Thank you very much, and hopefully this is…
—LEO 1: <unintelligible> [Phone Rings]
VOTER: Because if there’s a change I want to know.
—LEO 3: Yes, ma’am. <—LEO is talking on the phone to the DA explaining to her that VOTER was legal>
—LEO 1: <conversation between —LEO and VOTER>
VOTER: As you see how confusing this is, it is important that <unintelligible>
—LEO 1: I agree. You know what? The open carry law is very illogical <unintelligible>
—LEO 1: I guess it comes down to, people don’t know the laws, people are going to call us.
<unintelligible>
—LEO 3: Why are you even carryin here? Is it really worth the risk?
VOTER: Well, you just had the Sikh temple and another few incidents. On my end, is it worth the risk? I have children with me, so I want their safety...
—LEO 3: <unintelligible> We need your name and dob at least, for the report.
<So, I must choose Arrest, show CPL, or give name and dob after he saw my cpl from a distance that I atleast had one>
<Many can debate on whether I should, but with my kids I chose the "no-arrest-no-court-battle">
—LEO 1: Name and DOB please!
VOTER: I give it.
VOTER: Okay, you guys are done? I’m free to go? Thank you very much.
—LEO 1: Thank you.
