OC with non-resident CPL

[Bronson]

Ok so bear with me, it's late and I'm hopped up on caffeine  

I've long felt that Michigan's CPL fee is ridiculously high, especially when you compare it to many other states.  I'm thinking that a lower cost alternative for Michigan residents who are only going to OC is to get a non-resident permit from another state.  In talking with people on other boards there are some states with fees near the $20.00 with no class/test requirement.  This would allow you to carry in the OC pistol free zones, but it unfortunately still wouldn't allow you to carry in a vehicle.

Here's how I came to this:

750.234d states:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

[snipped]

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

So, Michigan doesn't honor non-resident concealed licenses for concealed carry but there doesn't seem to be a residency requirement for using an out of state CPL in order to OC in the PFZs.

28.432a states:

(1) The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:

(h) A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.

So in order to conceal carry or carry in a vehicle you must be a resident of the state that issued your license be it Michigan or another state.  But in order to OC in the OC pistol free zones you merely have to have a license to conceal issued by ANY state.

If you're on a budget and don't plan to conceal this may be another way gain a little more freedom of movement.

This is all just conjecture on my part.  Please do your own research and, as always, seek competent legal counsel for answers to any and all legal questions.

Now pick it apart and tell me I'm wrong  

Bronson

[SpringerXDacp]

750.234d states:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

[snipped]

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

So, Michigan doesn't honor non-resident concealed licenses for concealed carry but there doesn't seem to be a residency requirement for using an out of state CPL in order to OC in the PFZs.

Keeping in mind two things:

1) Rules of Statutory Construction, where one statute takes precedence of another statute (order of effective dates).  And,
2) This discussion is only pertaining to residents of Michigan.

IMO, as a resident of Michigan, he or she is bound by Rules of Statutory Construction, due to the fact that 750.234d was effective August 15, 1994 and 750.231a was effective January 7, 2009.  Again, due to Rules of Statutory Construction, 750.231a takes precedence over 750.234d in regards to permit/license to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan and/or OC in the PFZ's.

[StingMP9]

I think Bronson is taking these quotes a little out of context. All info I have ever read indicates Michigan has full reciprocity for CPL holders of all states that issue them. And where do you read in these statutes that I have just reviewed that a holder from another state shall not conceal in a vehicle?

I see no statute stating this. I am sure that you hope you are wrong also.

[Bronson]

I think Bronson is taking these quotes a little out of context. All info I have ever read indicates Michigan has full reciprocity for CPL holders of all states that issue them. And where do you read in these statutes that I have just reviewed that a holder from another state shall not conceal in a vehicle?

I see no statute stating this. I am sure that you hope you are wrong also.

Sting, I think you are taking the intent of my post incorrectly.  

Yes, Michigan does have full reciprocity, including vehicle carry, as long as an out of stater has a permit from their state of RESIDENCE.  If, for example, their state does not offer a permit and they have a NON-resident permit from another state Michigan does not recognize that NON-resident permit for purposes of vehicle or CONCEALED carry but Michigan does recognize that NON-resident permit for OPEN CARRY with a concealed pistol license, which would allows OPEN CARRY in the open carry pistol free zones but not vehicle carry.

Now, that is all for a NON resident of Michigan which is NOT what I'm wondering about.

I'm wondering if a RESIDENT of Michigan were to get a NON-resident concealed license from another state, if the Michigan resident would then be able to OPEN CARRY in the open carry pistol free zones without having to get a MICHIGAN CPL.  This could be a lower cost alternative to using a Michigan CPL to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones since there are states that offer non-resident permits for very low cost with no class or training requirement.  Now because Michigan doesn't recognize NON-resident conealed licenses for vehicle or concealed carry a Michigan resident using a NON-resident concealed license wouldn't be able to conceal or vehicle carry but, IF I'm correct, they would be able to OC in places licensed to sell alcohol which is a huge inconvenience if you don't have a CPL.

Springer mentioned the rules of statutory construction as being a road block to this idea and that may very well be, but I haven't been able to find these rules out on the net so if anybody could point me to them I'd appreciate it.

Bronson

[StingMP9]

I think Bronson is taking these quotes a little out of context. All info I have ever read indicates Michigan has full reciprocity for CPL holders of all states that issue them. And where do you read in these statutes that I have just reviewed that a holder from another state shall not conceal in a vehicle?

I see no statute stating this. I am sure that you hope you are wrong also.

Sting, I think you are taking the intent of my post incorrectly.  

Yes, Michigan does have full reciprocity, including vehicle carry, as long as an out of stater has a permit from their state of RESIDENCE.  If, for example, their state does not offer a permit and they have a NON-resident permit from another state Michigan does not recognize that NON-resident permit for purposes of vehicle or CONCEALED carry but Michigan does recognize that NON-resident permit for OPEN CARRY with a concealed pistol license, which would allows OPEN CARRY in the open carry pistol free zones but not vehicle carry.

Now, that is all for a NON resident of Michigan which is NOT what I'm wondering about.

I'm wondering if a RESIDENT of Michigan were to get a NON-resident concealed license from another state, if the Michigan resident would then be able to OPEN CARRY in the open carry pistol free zones without having to get a MICHIGAN CPL.  This could be a lower cost alternative to using a Michigan CPL to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones since there are states that offer non-resident permits for very low cost with no class or training requirement.  Now because Michigan doesn't recognize NON-resident conealed licenses for vehicle or concealed carry a Michigan resident using a NON-resident concealed license wouldn't be able to conceal or vehicle carry but, IF I'm correct, they would be able to OC in places licensed to sell alcohol which is a huge inconvenience if you don't have a CPL.

Springer mentioned the rules of statutory construction as being a road block to this idea and that may very well be, but I haven't been able to find these rules out on the net so if anybody could point me to them I'd appreciate it.

Bronson

The honor that Michigan holds non-resident CPL to is the same level as ours as long as the citizen follows our laws and not just the one from the issuing state. The code you cited states nothing contradictory to that. Not only do I believe that I know this to be correct I also know a resident(loose association) that does this with a North Carolina CPL that he received while he was stationed there in the military for his off duty usage. He still uses it in Michigan to this day, legally in a vehicle and on his person at times I assume. The statue you quoted snips from allow a person legally carrying with an out of state CPL to have all the same rights as a person with a state of Michigan CPL. Where does it contradict this?

[StingMP9]

Geez, no edit button on the posts?

SO I just found on this thread http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=43673&forum_id=30&highlight=school
Michigander saying something equivalent to what you are saying: Just for clarification, lil freak is commenting on how the federal gun free school zones act of 1996 exempts those who are licensed to carry by their home states, and act 372 of 1927 defines registration as a license to carry, among other things. There are still a ton of places that you can't carry without that CPL.

And by the way, on the topic of licenses to carry, as a Michigan resident, an out of state license to carry concealed will give you the right to open carry at all of the criminal empowerment zones that a CPL would exempt you from while open carrying. But remember, you can't carry concealed under these licenses, or in a vehicle. This is a fabulous option for new residents who aren't eligable for CPL's because of not being a resident for 6 months yet, as well as people who are 18-20. 

But I don't see the language to support it except possibly is it that the person in question is a Michigan resident with a different CPL from a previous home state. Is it once you become a resident here that is when your right to conceal on your person or in a vehicle becomes null until you have a MI CPL??? Is this what you are saying, because it seems clear that visitors from out of state with a valid CPL from that home state can do everything under the power of ours. I have officially gotten confused Bronson. I might have been premature with my last reply.

[drtodd]

Potential Problem:
This AG opinion SEEMS to reflect upon how the issue could play out... it may appear that one is attempting to circumvent the law... and as a Mich resident, it could be argued if you "should" have applied for the MI CPL, and instead get an out-of-state version, even just to OC in PFZ's, you (may) have circumvented the law.

I don't agree with the logic, but here its is...


http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1990s/op06798.htm

".... There are many rules for interpreting statutes. The ultimate goal of all such rules is to ascertain and implement the legislative intent, even if the intent might appear in conflict with the literal language of the statute. People v Stoudemire, 429 Mich 262, 266; 414 NW2d 693 (1987). Also, statutes must be interpreted to avoid absurd consequences. Webster v Rotary Electric Steel Co, 321 Mich 526, 531; 33 NW2d 69 (1948).

Here, the Legislature has created local gun boards with the exclusive authority to issue concealed pistol licenses. The Legislature has imposed specific statutory requirements applicants must meet to obtain these licenses. In addition, whether applicants have good reasons and are suitable persons to be licensed is within the sound discretion of a board of local professionals who apply their knowledge of community needs and problems in evaluating applications. It is inconceivable that the Legislature, after crafting these statutory requirements for obtaining a concealed pistol license, intended to permit Michigan residents to avoid them by obtaining a concealed pistol license in another state that may not impose many of the Michigan requirements. That construction of the statute would result in the absurd consequence that a Michigan resident could avoid the legislatively imposed requirements for obtaining a concealed pistol license in Michigan by obtaining that type of license in another state without having to meet the Michigan requirements. Thus, it must be concluded that a Michigan resident with a concealed pistol license obtained in another state may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan unless the resident first obtains a concealed pistol license in Michigan by meeting the requirements for obtaining the license imposed by Michigan law."

[Bronson]

Well then there it is.

Too bad thoough.

Bronson

[Bronson]

The honor that Michigan holds non-resident CPL to is the same level as ours as long as the citizen follows our laws and not just the one from the issuing state. The code you cited states nothing contradictory to that. Not only do I believe that I know this to be correct I also know a resident(loose association) that does this with a North Carolina CPL that he received while he was stationed there in the military for his off duty usage. He still uses it in Michigan to this day, legally in a vehicle and on his person at times I assume. The statue you quoted snips from allow a person legally carrying with an out of state CPL to have all the same rights as a person with a state of Michigan CPL. Where does it contradict this?

It doesn't matter now becuase DrTodd put the final nail in the coffin but it seems you are confusing an out of state resident permit with an out of state NON-resident permit.

A NON Michigan resident enjoys full reciprocity in Michigan if they have a concealed license from their state of residence.  If they do NOT have a concealed license from their state of residence but they have a NON-resident license from another state they cannot conceal or vehicle carry in Michigan but they CAN OC in the OC pistol free zones.  I was just wondering if this would work for a MI resident but apparently not.

Bronson

[Michigander]

That AG opinion may very well be the final nail in the coffin for the idea of OC with an out of state CPL, but I'm not completely convinced, because clearly that opinion focused on concealed carry, and not not open carry. Furthermore, it is from a time before shall issue, so what he says about the careful decisions of the professionals at the gun board has been more or less rendered meaningless. At this time, the gun board is a relic of the past, and the requirements for a Michigan CPL and a license from another state may be exactly the same other than Michigan's high price.

I am going to contact Dean Greenblatt about this.