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Offline venator

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New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« on: April 02, 2010, 09:30:49 AM »
If you have new or updated information for anything in this thread, start a new topic in the OC Questions Forum and provide the updated information.  After you provide the updated information "Report to moderator" the original post in the thread and ask a Moderator to post to or update this thread.

IMPORTANT NOTICEThe information contained in this thread is not legal advice but is merely a starting point for your own research and a basis to form your own decision about appropriate courses of action.  No one posting information in this thread is a lawyer, if you'd like individualized legal advice, we'd be happy to refer you to some Law Practices with known firearm specializationsAt the minimum, we advise you to read this thread and all the information referenced here-in in its entirety.  It is crucial you understand the law before you begin open carrying.



YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN*

1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a Michigan registered handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL.  Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.

MSP Legal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...

PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act (Note-This is any place that sells alcohol, e.g. Krogers, party stores, etc.)

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

b) A peace officer.

c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law. 

Michigan State Police Web Site.  Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?

Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. 

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part:  A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

THE MICHIGAN  COURT of APPEALS CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas. 

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession. 

4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.

ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry.   Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct.  The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002:  …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously.  A menacing or defiant wave or flourish."  This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."   Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. 

5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address.  No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm.   It is your option to provide ID/CPL.

ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different.  We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests.  Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. Ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained.  If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained?  If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor.  Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest.  After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d.  For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc. 

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.   

“Your analysis is correct.  Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders.  The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol.  Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.” 

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

ADVISORY NOTE:  Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force.  Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended.  Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal  requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.

FOR MORE INFO SEE http://WWW.OPENCARRY.ORG

*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in Michigan.  You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above.  If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.
 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 09:12:33 AM by TheQ »
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline venator

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 09:36:30 AM »
Example FOIA letter.


With Thanks to Attorney...
Dean G. Greenblatt
Attorney and Counselor
Dean G. Greenblatt, PLC
4190 Telegraph Road
Suite 3500
P.O. Box 40
Bloomfield Hills, MI 48303-0040
248/644-7520 dgg@mnsi.net



Date:

VIA CERTIFIED MAIL
RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED

FOIA COORDINATOR
ANYWHERE POLICE DEPARTMENT
1300 BLANK ST
POLICE HEADQUARTERS
ANYWHERE, MI 48484

RE:    FOIA Request

Dear FOIA Coordinator:

On February X, 20XX at approximately 00:00 PM, Anywhere Police Department Officers XXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXX engaged in the detention and investigation of a man with a pistol on the sidewalk at Some Street between That St and Another St in the City of Anywhere.  As a result of Officers XXXXXX and XXXXX’s investigation, Officer XXXXXX issued citations for firearm violations to You Yourself.

Pursuant to the Michigan Freedom of Information Act, MCL §15.231, I am requesting copies of documents relating to the aforementioned incident including:

Any and all recordings of radio communications related in any way to the dispatch, response, or request for assistance by the officers involved with the incident;

Any and all video recordings of the incident, including patrol car video;

Any and all documents that identify the officers dispatched to the scene as a result of the incident, including the police report; roll call rosters; vehicle logs; and, audio recordings;

Any and all emails, memos, letters and/or other correspondence between employees of the Anywhere Police Department and any other person regarding the incident; and,

Any and all property booking notes, cards, papers recording the property seized by Officer XXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXXX associated with the incident.

Should the cost for researching, compiling and copying the requested information exceed $30.00, please inform me of the anticipated cost, and provide me with a time and place for a physical inspection of the requested information before researching, compiling or copying the requested information.

Please respond to this request by replying to the following address:

You Yourself
123 Anystreet
Whatever City, MI  48484
313-555-5555

I appreciate your anticipated cooperation with this request.  If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call me at the number above.

Sincerely,

« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 04:54:14 PM by TheQ »
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline venator

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Open Carry and Law Enforcement Interactions
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 09:38:36 AM »
Suggestions when contacted by an LEO for lawful open carry.

1.  Be polite and ask the law enforcement officer (LEO) why he is detaining you.  If the LEO response is for open carry, inform the LEO it is legal to open carry in Michigan, and ask if you are free to go.

2.  If the LEO states that you are not free to go, ask again if the only reason you are being detained is because of lawful open carry and repeat “officer am I free to go”.

3.  If the LEO continues to detain you and asks for an ID or a license to carry a concealed pistol (CPL), tell the LEO you are not required to have an ID or a CPL to open carry.  By law if the stop is only for the legal open carry of a firearm, you do not have to give your name.  It is your option to provide an ID/CPL if you desire.  Providing an ID or CPL may expedite the stop and we recommend that you do so. 

4.  If the officer wants to disarm you let him remove your firearm.  Do not place your hands anywhere near the firearm.  We recommend you cooperate with all lawful requests.  Continue to repeat that open carry is legal and ask “officer am I free to go”.

5.  Do not argue with the LEO, do not say anything that will be used against you. Do not editorialize on the law. 

6.  If the situation escalates ask for the LEO’s supervisor.  Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest.  After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

7.  Never consent to a search of your person or vehicle.  State “I DO NOT consent to any search.  The LEO may search you anyway don’t fight the search.  Save any arguments for a court of law.  Keep asking if you are free to go, and “Why am I being detained.” 

8.  If you are arrested, ask for an attorney and remain silent until you have counsel.

We recommend you carry a voice recorder to tape the interaction between yourself and the LEO.  Taping a public conversation is legal in Michigan. 
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline venator

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 09:42:45 AM »
DEADLY FORCE IN MICHIGAN

The “CASTLE DOCTRINE” package of bills was signed into law on July 20, 2006. The law became effective on October 1, 2006.

This law removes the duty to retreat from a violent attack. Individuals in Michigan, as in most states, have always had the right to stand their ground and defend themselves with no duty to retreat when attacked inside the four walls of their home. However, if attacked outside the four walls of their home, even if on their own property (such as the backyard, detached garage, or a pole building), individuals in Michigan were required to retreat from a violent attack if able to do so safely. As of October 1, 2006, there is no longer a “duty to retreat” from a violent attack as long as the individual is in a place where they have a legal right to be and as long as they are not engaged in illegal activity.

The “Use of Deadly Force” continuum still applies. The escalating degrees of force still apply to all situations and the “Reasonable Man” standard is still used to evaluate an individual’s actions in a given circumstance. This means that the following three valid reasons to use deadly force still apply to all situations:

1) Fear of Death.

2) Fear of Serious Bodily Injury.

3) Fear of Forcible Sexual Penetration.

In addition to these three reasons for the use of deadly force, the following three conditions must exist in order for the use of deadly force to be justifiable:

1. Imminent - One of the three above listed reasons for the use of deadly force must be about to happen; it cannot be something that will happen tomorrow or in a few weeks.

2. Intent - The attacker has to have demonstrated some sort of intent. This can be verbal or non-verbal. The display of a weapon, verbal threats, or aggressive advances after being told to stay away are all indications of intent.

3. Ability – The attacker has to have the ability to carry through with their intended attack. If someone says they are going to shoot you, but have no firearm, then they do not have the ability to shoot you at that moment.

You still must act reasonably and apply the above principles of the use of deadly force.
Here is what this law does change. This law removes the duty to retreat anywhere that an individual has a legal right to be provided that they are not engaged in illegal activity. If a person acts with reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, then the prosecuting attorney must prove that the person acted unlawfully in order to take the case to trial. This is a change from current procedure where a person who acts in self-defense must prove that they acted lawfully after being charged and possibly taken to court. In addition, if a person cannot be charged and convicted criminally, the new law provides that they cannot be prosecuted civilly. If for some reason a civil case is allowed to proceed, the person who used justifiable self-defense shall be awarded court and attorney’s fees.

This all means that you must still act in a reasonable manner. Your firearm should still be your “tool of last resort” for self-defense. The emotional trauma and aftermath of shooting another human being will be absolutely devastating. It should be avoided if at all possible. This law mitigates the aftermath so that a decision made under the duress of defending oneself against a criminal does not destroy your life criminally or financially.

You are encouraged to read these laws for yourself and evaluate them. For professional legal advice, you should consult a lawyer familiar with firearms law and the use of deadly force in Michigan. The new laws are 2006 PA 309 and 2006 PA 313.
Above modified From: http://www.southsidesportsmanclub.com/stand-your-ground.html

SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 309 of 2006
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.  2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.
 
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Offline venator

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 10:43:02 AM »
Here is a text copy of the .pdf of the Lansing PD memo on interaction with open carry.  I have deleted the last portion which is a list of places you can OC CC and or both, etc.  There were too many mistakes in it to post it here.  Also Keep in mind I disagree with some parts of this memo.  I have added the pdf of the memo as the size limit problem has been corrected.

February 1, 2010

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT "OPEN CARRY" OF FIREARMS

Open Carry: Openly carrying a handgun in public in Michigan.

As a police officer you may have the following initial thoughts about “open carry”. You may think :

_ Open Carry goes against society's culture.
_ Flies in the face of all good judgment.
_ Is against every officer's instinct of survival.
_ Is contrary to every officer's safety principle that is taught when confronted with armed offenders.

You are absolutely right in your thinking. However, these thoughts aside, Michigan law allows a person to openly carry a handgun in Michigan.... as long as it is fully exposed and they comply with the law. There is no statute that specifically prohibits carrying a visible pistol or revolver. (Long guns should be treated in the same manner as handguns).

Statement of the Law

Any 18-yr. old or older, law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a legally registered handgun may openly carry a firearm in a holster in all places not explicitly exempt by law.

The Core of An Officer’s Ability to Detain A Person Who Openly Carries Mere Possession of a handgun in a non-exempted place is NOT PROBABLE CAUSE or REASONABLE SUSPICION of a crime.  Unless a person who is openly carrying a handgun is engaged in activity which gives rise to a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity or probable cause, that person may not be detained by police.
_ Do Not seize the handgun (s) for safekeeping without having a crime.

OPEN CARRY

What Open Carry Is Not

Carrying a handgun itself does not support disorderly conduct. Brandishing occurs only when the person is waving the firearm around in a threatening manner.

Another person’s fear of the mere presence of a firearm does not make an assault. Also, do not rely on the enforcement of a local ordinance to trump the Constitution. If a person who is openly carrying a handgun is committing a crime or is in a prohibited place, or if the owner/agent of the premises wants the individual to leave, then officers have a legal reason to engage a subject and enforce the law which may be in process of being violated.  Otherwise, a person carrying openly is no different from any other person in the same environment.

So how are we going to handle this type of call?

RETHINK  ‘MAN WITH A GUN’ CALL

Historically the ‘Man With a Gun Call’ may have prompted a full court press that urgent police action was required. Not necessarily so anymore.

911 Center / Dispatch Considerations

If a complaint comes through dispatch, staff needs to ask for more information than what has been asked in the past.  At one end of the spectrum is the phrase “man with a gun”.  With the prevalence of Concealed Pistol Licenses and Open Carry laws, people may be seen in public with handguns. At the other end of the spectrum might be a call that there is an active shooter. The person merely possessing an open carry gun should prompt a very different police response than the call of an active shooter,  for example.

KEY: THE FOCUS IS WHAT IS THE PERSON WITH THE GUN DOING
WITH THE GUN??


-Ask what the specific behavior the subject engaged in led to the complaint.
-Ask what the subject is specifically doing at the location.
-Ask if other people are with the subject.
-Ask if others are visibly armed.
-Ask if other people are behaving normally.
-Ask if the caller is on private property and are they the owner/agent.
-Ask the caller if the only reason for the call is that the subject is armed.
-If they are in a bank — ownership of the bank details are needed.

Officer Considerations On Scene

When dispatched to a subject with a gun type call in a public place, business, etc.:

_ If available, wait for a second or backup officer.
_ Question the complainant to see if the only reason for the call is that the subject is armed.
_ From concealment, first observe the behavior of the subject.
_ Contact the property owner/agent for their policy on firearms on the premises and their wishes regarding the open carry of firearms on their premises.
_ If nothing seems suspicious, unusual or criminal then approach the person openly carrying in a normal manner but keeping aware of cover and a tactical advantage.
_ With the aid of a second officer use Cover/Contact tactics.
_ Be aware of others in close proximity of the subject.
_ Identify yourself right away, even if in uniform, and explain why you are there.
_ Remember the subject is not obliged to be cooperative.
_ Be polite, ask questions, and make requests; do not give commands.
_ Do not make the contact a test of will.
_ Speak how you would like to be spoken to.
_ Do not voice your political opinion or your view on open carry. Do not lecture or be judgmental.
_ Remember many people openly carrying a firearm are making a political statement.
_ Do not become a victim because you allowed your ego to override your good judgment.
_ Always thank subjects for their cooperation.
_ Do not seize any firearm(s) for safekeeping without having a crime.

A Friendly Chat with the subject....

OFFICERS MAY APPROACH A SUSPECT TO ENGAGE IN A FRIENDLY CHAT.  AND THE PERSON WHO IS OPENLY CARRYING MAY CHAT WITH THE  OFFICER OR MAY SIMPLY WALK AWAY FROM THE OFFICER.

Remember the courts have found that officers do not violate the Fourth Amendment by merely approaching an individual on the street or in another public place, by asking them if they are willing to answer some questions. However, the courts have held - the person need not answer any question put to them; indeed, they may decline to listen to the questions at all and may go on their way. They may not be detained even momentarily without reasonable, objective grounds for doing so; and their refusal to listen or answer does not, without more, furnish those grounds. If there is no detention—no seizure within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment—then no constitutional rights have been infringed.  In short, a consensual encounter does not amount to a seizure, and a police officer does not need reasonable suspicion or probable cause before approaching a person to ask questions.

THE PERSON MAY NOT BE DETAINED WITHOUT SUSPICION OR
PROBABLE CAUSE.


Officers need to remember that in Michigan, the subject does not have to answer the
questions and can walk away and the officer cannot use that action as a reason to
arrest.
See, however, People v Shankle, 227 Mich App 690, 693; 577 NW2d 471 (1998)
as a Michigan case that supports the concept that a general discussion with the subject could very well lead to reasonable suspicion if the subject's behavior is off or the subject is furtive or evasive while speaking with the officer. It does not violate a person's rights to stand around and ask occasional questions while watching what that person is doing.  The key is that the officer should never give the impression that the officer intends to detain or obstruct the free will of the person to move about.

Additional Legal Considerations

_ Remember that openly carrying a firearm is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition under the law.
_ Know the Michigan Statutes on Concealed Pistol License and what gun free or restricted areas are.
_ Have a detailed understanding of Terry v Ohio.
-Reasonable Suspicion
-Probable Cause
-Limitations of Search
-Clearly defining a subject's actions that establish reasonable suspicion.
-Report writing that requires officers to use specific and plain language when defining probable cause.

Sources: 1. Audrey Forbush of Plunkett Cooney, PC. 2. Law Enforcement Action Forum (LEAF) of the Michigan Municipal League.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 10:55:27 AM by venator »
Family book on OPEN CARRY go to: http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/
Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 07:15:57 AM »
OC / CC Carry Chart

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 05:03:56 PM »
Carry & Firearms Info (Info only---No Disscussion Please)

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 05:07:22 PM »
Preemption

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 05:08:09 PM »
Knife laws

Important note: Knives are not preempted! Many local governments have and lawfully enforce knife bans!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 03:54:44 PM by TheQ »

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 05:09:07 PM »
PFZ's

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 05:10:48 PM »
Pistol Sales Record

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 05:11:36 PM »
Transporting Firearms

Warchild

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 05:12:32 PM »
Pistol Sales Record Retention

Offline drtodd

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2010, 12:53:29 PM »
NEW CPL RECIPROCITY

I noticed that the CPL reciprocity listed above is old; it is missing Nebraska.  January 1, 2011, Michigan CPL's will be honored in Iowa.  I have emailed Mike Cox's office to work on reciprocity w/ Maine, as I was informed Maine thought that Michigan did not enter into reciprocity agreements.

Autosurgeon wrote: Please note I removed the outdated Reciprocity post above and am leaving this one as the most current.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 05:30:44 PM by autosurgeon »
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2010, 12:49:43 PM »
Why to carry with One in the chamber!! Always!

NOTE thank you to Marc MacYoung for developing this.

The 5-Stages-of-Violent-Crime is an internationally recognized system developed by Marc MacYoung which is utilized by police, military, firearms and self-defense instructors. The system works to outline the process that a criminal works thru before the attack even happens.

The first 3 stages are where effective self-defense awareness training can get you out of trouble. These 3 stages are the setup.

Stage 1 - The Intent

In its simplest form, the Intent is where the criminal is mentally and physically prepared to commit violence. By being able to recognize potential psychological and verbal "tells," your awareness should kick you into a state of orange, or warning mode.

Stage 2 - The Interview

The interview is a criminal process you want to fail. This is the criminal's attempt through verbal interaction to get a sense of you as a potential target. For example, are you too trusting, do you allow him in close, do you exhibit fear in your body language? A sample interview would be asking for directions or the time. How do you react? Your body language and your reaction allows the criminal to decide whether or not you are a suitable target that provides the least amount of resistance. By understanding the various interviews used, your awareness training should again kick you into a state of orange.

Stage 3 - The Positioning

Positioning is simply a fancy word for opportunity. Just like when we discuss the crime triangle, without opportunity, there can be no crime. Opportunity is about the criminal placing himself in a place where he can successfully attack you quickly and effectively. Are you aware of your surroundings? Are you isolated? Do you have an escape route? Can you reach help quickly? Can you draw attention if things go south? Again, all of these are important questions in your awareness plan.

The next two stages are about the act of violence, where your physical self-defense skills may have to be utilized. They also only happen when the above 3 stages work. Meaning, if a criminal can't set you up, he most likely won't attack you.

Stage 4 - The Attack

The criminal has now decided that you are a safe target and is commencing the attack to get what he wants. Your goal in any attack is survival and escape employing whatever verbal or physical self-defense tools you have available to you.

Stage 5 - The Reaction

The reaction is the most dangerous of the five stages. It's how the criminal feels about himself for what he has just done; and how he views your reaction to what he has done. The volatility at this stage can turn a simple assault to a rape to a murder.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 04:18:40 PM by TheQ »
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline Small_Arms_Collector

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 03:54:08 PM »
I thought that it would be nice to have a thread with all the relevant laws of interest to Michigan's Gun Owners, particularly those who carry.  I think I got them all, but if you can think of anything else let me know.

MCL 123.1102 Michigan Firearm law preemption.

MCL 28.425f CPL Police Disclosure requirement.

MCL 750.224d Non CPL Holder Gun Free Zones.

MCL 28.425o CPL Pistol Free Zones.

MCL 28.421 Definitions, this is the one sited in AG Opinion 6280.

MCL 750.224b Short Barreled Rifles, and Shotguns are banned, unless they're C&R's.

MCL 750.222 Definitions.

MCL 28.425b Concealed Carry law.

MCL 28.422a Pistol Registration Requirement, and exemption from Purchase Permits for CPL holders.

MCL 28.422 Purchase Permit requirement.

AG Opinion 6280 Rifles, or Shotguns measuring less than 30 inches, but more than 26 inches in overall length are considered pistols, and folding, or telescoping stocks are measured folded, or collapsed.

AG Opinion 7113 Pistol Free Zones do not apply if you open carry, and have a CPL.

Supreme Court Decision DC V. Heller

Supreme Court Decision Chicago V. McDonald

Supreme Court Decision Florida V. JL Anonymous tip, or mere possession of a gun is not enough probable cause for a terry stop.

Declaration Of Independence

US Constitution

The Bill Of Rights

Michigan Constitution

Open Carry Tri Fold Pamphlet
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 05:29:29 PM by TheQ »

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2010, 04:12:12 PM »
The first legal update that mentions open carry of a pistol.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_-_April_2007_198953_7.pdf
The line that says:

Quote
Finally, a pistol can’t be carried in public where it violates local ordinance.

This can be ignored per MCL 123.1102

This was clarified in the next update below:

Quote
Second, in the April edition we noted that a pistol cannot be carried in public where it violates local ordinance. This is true, but only where the ordinance is specifically authorized by state law.


The second legal update the mentions open carry of a pistol.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_-_May_2007_198956_7.pdf


The third legal update to mention open carry….

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf



The newest legal update specifically dealing with the carry open or concealed of a pistol.

And this is the big one as the entire update is completely and totally focused on carry law!

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf


MSP Legal Update 90 discusses the legality of recording police during the normal course of their duties:

Quote
Note: The following material does not represent new law. Instead, it is intended to reinforce basic rules of law that police officers frequently apply.

Michigan law does not prohibit citizens from recording police officers performing their duties. MCL 750.539c prohibits a person from using any device to eavesdrop upon a private conversation without the consent of all parties to the conversation. This statute only applies in situations where the parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the conversation. In general, police officers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy during the performance of their duties.
Citizens may be arrested for resisting and obstructing, MCL 750.81d, for interfering with a police officer in lawful discharge of his or her duties; however, simply recording an event from a safe distance is not the proper basis for a resisting and obstructing arrest.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._90_367686_7.pdf

Quote
Note: The following material does not represent new law. Instead, it is intended to reinforce basic rules of law that police officers frequently apply. Michigan law does not prohibit citizens from recording police officers performing their duties. MCL 750.539c prohibits a person from using any device to eavesdrop upon a private conversation without the consent of all parties to the conversation. This statute only applies in situations where the parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the conversation. In general, police officers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy during the performance of their duties. Citizens may be arrested for resisting and obstructing, MCL 750.81d, for interfering with a police officer in lawful discharge of his or her duties; however, simply recording an event from a safe distance is not the proper basis for a resisting and obstructing arrest.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 05:35:10 PM by TheQ »
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 04:51:49 PM »
From: Aimee Maike <MaikeA@michigan.gov>
Sent: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:50:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: MCL 28.425o, MCL 750.234d, and open carry

Mr. Cupka,

MCL 28.425o lists the premises upon which a CPL holder may not carry a concealed pistol.  MCL 28.425o does not apply to a CPL holder when he or she is carrying a visible non-concealed pistol, commonly referred to as open carry.  MCL 750.234d lists the premises upon which a person shall not possess a firearm; however, CPL holders are specifically exempted by subsection (2)(c).  Therefore, CPL holders may carry a visible non-concealed pistol on the premises listed in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d without being in violation of either statute.

The following are links to the pertinent statutes for your review:

MCL 28.425o
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vidajy45mwvpgvboqggcel55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-28-425o.pdf

MCL 750.234d
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vidajy45mwvpgvboqggcel55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-750-234d.pdf

Please feel free to contact me directly with any further questions you may have regarding this issue. 

Sincerely,
Sergeant Aimee Maike
Michigan State Police
Office of the Director
Legal Resource and Education Unit
333 South Grand Avenue
P.O. Box 30634
Lansing, Michigan  48909
Desk:  (517) 241-1906
Fax:  (517) 241-0991
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Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2012, 01:26:55 PM »
This has been a long debate in the OC Community.  This post isn't intended to answer the debate once and for all.  Readers should note:

  • Attorney General Opinions are non-binding in Court (See People v Watkins if you want an example)
  • This is an Opinion Rendered by a member of the AG's staff -- it's even less formal and influential/binding than an Attorney General Opinion.

This post is only made to provide further information for people to make their own decisions.  The MOC Board of Directors has discussed this topic and we still maintain our view of:

Quote
It's a legal grey area.  Don't do it unless you are prepared to shell out over $20,000 in attorney costs if it goes to Court and you need to appeal.  If it goes to the Court of Appeals we'd welcome the binding case law.  We don't recommend you OC or Transport in a Parking lot of an establishment licensed to sell liquor..  As always, we advocate people should know the law, gauge their own risk, and speak to a licensed attorney for legal advise.  We'd be happy to provide you references to some attorneys who have expertise in firearm laws.

Now that that's aside...see the attachment provided by the AG via Richard LeBlanc's office (THANK YOU! and thank you for showing us there are pro-gun "Democrats")

Discuss...
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Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2012, 09:08:52 AM »
A current statement from the leadership of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. on open carrying in a Pistol Free Zone (MCL 28.425o) with a CPL:

Quote
While the letter of the law as well as numerous resources (Attorney General Opinions, Michigan State Police Legal Updates, etc.) state that Open Carry in a Concealed Pistol Free Zone (as laid out in MCL 28.425o) is lawful, it is important to point out that not everyone in the Michigan Judicial System currently agrees with this legal interpretation.  What's more there is no binding legal precedent (Michigan Court of Appeals or Higher) on this understanding of the law.  This makes the matter an "open question".  Despite the plain black and white reading of the law, a judge may interpret otherwise.  In People v Watkins, a case which went to a Circuit Court Judge in Ingham County, Judge Rosemarie Aquilina found the idea that one can Open Carry in a 28.425o zone to be an "absurd interpretation of the law".  This indicated she would not overturn a civil infraction finding of "responsible" ("guilty" version for a civil infraction) based on the argument that you can Open Carry in a Pistol Free Zone with a CPL.  The information contained in this thread is not legal advice but is merely a starting point for your own research and a basis to form your own decision about appropriate courses of action.  No one posting information in this thread is a lawyer, if you'd like individualized legal advice, we'd be happy to refer you to some Law Practices with known firearm specializations.

In People v Watkins Judge Rosemarie Aquilina stated:

Quote
“Mr. Watkins contends that the combination of these laws [750.234d and 28.425o and 28.425c(2)(a)] creates an exemption for all CPL holders from the prohibition on the open possession of firearms in so-called "pistol-free zones." However, this interpretation creates an absurd result where people could openly carry a shotgun down the hallway of an elementary school or into a packed stadium of over 70,000 people if they had a CPL. While the statutes seem to contradict each other, this court agrees with the trial court's interpretation that guns cannot be openly carried in a sports arena, even if the person has a CPL.

” People v Watkins, Docket No. 10-951-AR, 30th Circuit Court, Ingham Co., April 15, 2011
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 12:53:17 PM by TheQ »
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Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 11:29:58 AM »
This document which covers all firearm related laws in the state amongst various other resources such as attorney general opinions is a must read also.  It will cover many of the items already discussed above in this thread.  This document provides comprehensive coverage of Michigan Firearm Laws.
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Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2012, 03:01:58 PM »
Videos related on how to survive a police encounter:

- Don't talk to the police!

- BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters
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Offline yance

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2013, 07:22:16 PM »
Open Carry w/out a CPL:

A person without a CPL can legally open carry a pistol as long as the pistol they are carrying has been lawfully purchased in accordance with MCL 28.422 and is registered in their name and they are at least 18 years of age.  Without a CPL you may NOT carry a firearm that belongs to and is registered to someone other than yourself.

MCL 28.422(1) states that “except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.”

As the above cited law states a person may not carry or possess a firearm without obtaining it in accordance with that particular law.  Therefore if you have obtained a firearm in accordance with MCL 28.422 by receiving a permit to purchase or by purchasing a firearm from a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer as the law dictates then you may lawfully open carry that pistol.

There are many places you should be aware of where someone without a CPL may NOT possess a firearm, which includes open carry.  The following is the list of prohibited places which is located in MCL 750.234d:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

It is very important that you pay attention to and understand what (h) in the above list is referring to.  An establishment that is licensed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission refers to any business that is licensed by the state of Michigan to sell alcohol.  The key phrase here is sell alcohol, it does not matter if it is consumed on the premises, if they are licensed to sell alcohol (and regardless of if they do) you may not possess a firearm on the premises without a valid CPL.  Premises include the parking area and surrounding property that the establishment is on. You can find out what businesses in your county are licensed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission by going to the following website:

http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

There is an exception to the above law, MCL 750.234d(2)(d):

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

If you do not have a CPL and you receive permission from the owner or agent of the owner (manager/supervisor) that you are allowed to carry while visiting their establishment then you would not be in violation of the above cited law and you can lawfully open carry at that establishment.  We encourage and suggest that the permission is given in written form so you have physical evidence that you were granted permission.

If a location that you are visiting is not listed or does not fall within the above law then you may lawfully open carry there regardless if you possess a CPL or not.

In addition to knowing where you can and cannot go you will also need to know how to get there and back, the following will review how to transport a firearm without a CPL.

Transportation without a CPL:

A person without a CPL is prohibited under MCL 750.227(2) from possessing a firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle:

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

What that means is that you cannot carry a firearm in your vehicle, in Michigan your firearm is considered concealed upon entering a vehicle therefore without a concealed pistol license you would be in violation of the law.

There is an exception for transporting a firearm however you need to be very diligent in making sure you are complying with all aspects of the law, it is very easy to slip and be facing felony charges for carrying a concealed weapon.  Below will describe how you can transport your firearm safely and lawfully for open carry if you do not have a CPL.


MCL 750.231a details how someone may lawfully transport a firearm:

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

To transport your pistol you are required to have the pistol unloaded and enclosed in a case that is designed for the storage of firearms and the encased pistol has to be in the trunk of the vehicle or if there is no trunk it has to be not easily accessible to the people in the vehicle.  It would be suggested that if you do not have a trunk to have a case that you can lock or place a lock onto, if it ever were to come into question its always best to appear to be making every attempt to comply with the law.  The pistol and magazine do NOT have to be separated as it is not a requirement under MCL 750.231a, the firearm has to be unloaded which means no magazine in the firearm and no round chambered.  The magazine can be in the same container as the firearm itself as long as the magazine is not loaded into the magazine well while you are transporting.

To ready your firearm for transportation here are the steps to follow:
Walk to the back of the vehicle with your firearms case

With both case and firearm completely outside of the vehicle find a spot to place your firearms case.

Unholster your pistol and remove the magazine and any rounds that might be chambered.

If you prefer you may place the round that was once chambered back into the magazine.

Place both the completely unloaded pistol and the (which is allowed to be loaded) magazine in your firearms case.

Place the firearm which is now located in your firearms case in the trunk of the vehicle and close the trunk.

You are ready to transport. 

If you do NOT have a trunk place the encased and completely unloaded firearm at what is preferably the furthest most point in your vehicle where you or someone else will not be able to easily access it, if you have a lock on your firearms case secure the lock into the ‘locked’ state. 

When you arrive at the destination where you can lawfully open carry you will need to retrieve your firearm from the trunk for the vehicle, or if there is no trunk from the location you placed the encased firearm.  To retrieve your firearm follow the above steps in the reverse order:

Open the trunk (or locate your encased firearm)

Take the encased firearm and yourself completely outside of the vehicle, to include the trunk space

Open the case

Load your firearm

Holster

Place the now empty container back into your trunk or vehicle if you have no trunk

Open carry.


When handling your firearm at your trunk please remember all safe firearm handling practices to avoid any unwanted accidents, the firearm is required to be handled out of necessity due to the current laws, only handle your firearm when necessary and always be safe.



Cites:

MCL 28.422: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
MCL 750.234d: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d
MCL 750.227: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227
MCL 750.231a http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-231a

Also see Michigan State Police Update #86 for more information: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

Offline TheQ

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Do "No Gun" signs have the force of law in Michigan?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 12:42:00 PM »
Q: Do "No Gun" signs on private property have the force of law in Michigan?

A: No where in Michigan law is there a special penalty or talk of "No Guns/Firearm" signs.  That being said, there are a few reasons you shouldn't carry at a privately owned place where you see a "No Gun" sign:

1. There is the legal reason: if it can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that you knew you couldn't carry there and you carry there anyways (open or concealed), you could be charged with criminal trespass.  See MCL 750.552

Quote
750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.

Sec. 552.

(1) A person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

(2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $250.00, or both.

The "No Guns" sign/policy establishes a condition on your "license" to use that private property.  If you knowingly violate the terms of that license, you are now on private property without permission -- AKA trespass.

How would the prosecutor be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt you knew of the policy?

A) There may be video of you entering the store with a friend while pointing at the sign and laughing about it.  In this case, it could be proven you saw the sign and chose to ignore it.
B) If you have been asked in the past to leave by the owner/agent of the owner, there could be documentation and/or video evidence of this.  Re-entering the property (unless you've heard from the owner/an agent of the owner otherwise) while armed would be provable trespass.

2. There is a second reason you shouldn't carry (or visit) a place that has a "no guns" policy/sign: profits.  Most businesses are in business for one reason and one reason alone: to make money.  Do you want to give a profit to someone who doesn't respect your right to self-defense?

Also businesses often contribute money to political campaigns; what type of politician would you think such a business would be apt to support? A politician that supports our rights or opposes them?

Deny these anti-gun businesses the ability to exist by denying them your patronage.

3. You're asked to leave by the owner/agent of the owner and you choose to not leave immediately.  The police can then be called and you can be arrested for trespass.  Typically when the police arrive they will ask you to leave before arresting you for trespass -- but this certainly does not have to be the case (it would just make the prosecution's case against you even better)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 03:03:31 PM by TheQ »
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Offline TheQ

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Vehicle Carry
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2013, 12:03:55 AM »
Q: I don't have a Concealed Pistol License (CPL).  Can I carry in/on a __________ (fill it in: Motorcycle, bicycle, tricycle, big wheel, 4-wheeler, snow mobile, city bus, cab, car)

A: This is a complicated answer.  For those of you with a short attention span (you know who you are), here's the short answer: NO.

For those of you that want a more in depth answer:

Quote
The applicable law in this case is MCL 750.227.  It reads, in relevant part (emphasis mine):

"(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license."

In the case of a vehicle you ride on, you aren't "in" it, but rather on it.  If you were arrested (which could certainly happen) and had a less than fully pro-gun prosecutor and judge, this question would go to the jury:

Was the thing you were in/on a "vehicle"?  The dictionary defines a vehicle as:

1. any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport: a motor vehicle; space vehicles.
2. a conveyance moving on wheels, runners, tracks, or the like, as a cart, sled, automobile, or tractor.

In the case of all of the above in the question, I'd say the answer is "yes".

With regards to a motorcycle/bicycle/other thing you ride on, I think the distinction of "in" (as 750.227) versus "on" will be lost on a jury.  Good luck to you and your lawyer selling that argument.  Sure, you can risk it.  The consequences are tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and the possibility of being found guilty of a five year felony (MCL 750.227).  Do you want to take that risk?  It's entirely up to you.  If I didn't have a CPL, would I take that risk?  Almost certainly not.

On the other hand, if you have loads of money and aren't bothered by the strong possibility of landing a felony (which will cost you your ability to own firearms) and you'd like to be a "test case", go for it.  We can refer you to some lawyers which may be happy to take your case, for a price.  By the way, almost all of these lawyers will advise you not to carry in/on ANY vehicle unless you have a CPL.

When it comes to a vehicle you are "in" (bus, car, etc.) MCL 750.227 is absolute on this answer: no, you may not legally carry.

The simple answer to avoid all of this is: get your CPL, then it is certainly legal to carry ("openly" or concealed) in/on almost any vehicle of your choosing.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 12:15:41 AM by TheQ »
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Offline SteveS

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Carry on Federal Property
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 02:57:38 PM »
Carrying weapons on federal property is entirely under the purview of federal law.  That being said, there are different laws and regulations, depending on where you are.

1.  Federal Buildings

Buildings operated by Federal Agencies, such as the IRS, SSA, USDA, etc., and Federal Courts fall under the following law:

18 USC § 930

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.


As stated, you cannot carry any weapon into a federal building.  There are a few exceptions and some have argued that self defense or having a CPL constitutes a "lawful purpose."  At this time, the government and the courts have disagreed.  The notices found at these buildings will typically contain language indicating that a CPL does not allow you to carry on federal property.  The language of the statute does not include parking lots.  In my experience, if you bring a weapon and it gets tagged by security when you are going in, they will tell you to go put it in your car and come back. 

2.  The Post Office

Besides the statute listed above, there is a regulation that applies to just the PO.

39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l)

Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.


If you have ever looked around a PO, you will find this posted.  It is more inclusive than the statute, as it includes all PO property, including the parking lot.  At present, there is an exception.  In Bonidy v. USPS, a US District Ct. found the parking lot provision to be unconstitutional.  Unfortunately for us, this only applies to Colorado, as District Court precedent only applies to that district. Ideally, this will move up and be affirmed by higher courts and apply to larger areas.

3.  National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges

This is one area where state law is important.  Under Federal Regulations, you can carry in these places if it would allowable under state law.  See 36 CFR 2.4:

(h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.

and,

50 CFR 27.42

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, persons may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national wildlife refuge in accordance with the laws of the state in which the wildlife refuge, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.

Here is a pamphlet from the US Park Service on the subject.  Please note that other federal laws still apply, including the ban on weapons in federal buildings.  Therefore, you may not carry a weapon into Ranger Stations, Visitor Centers, bathrooms, or any other US Government building on these properties.

4.  Indian Reservations

This is governed by tribal law.  There are a number of online lists, including this rather extensive one from the Handgunlaw site.  They recommend, and I agree completely, that you contact someone in authority and clarify what the rule is, preferably in writing. 

5.  US Army Corps of Engineers

See this pamphlet.  Weapons are not allowed, except if they are unloaded and stored in a vehicle. This applies to any land owned by the Corps of a Engineers.


If I have missed anything, please let me know.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 10:15:51 AM by SteveS »

Offline TheQ

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Openly carrying a gun registered to someone else
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 05:11:41 PM »
Question: I don't have a CPL.  Can I openly carry a gun registered to someone else?
Answer: No.  MCL 28.422 provides:
Quote
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

Note: you have to have a license for the pistol you are carrying.  If it is registered to someone else, you do not have a license to carry "the pistol".

There is an exception to this in MCL 28.432 for people who have a CPL:

Quote
(1) [MCL 28.422] does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.

(b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.

(c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

(d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.

(e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

(g) The regular and ordinary possession and transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
.....
(i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

Note: The person carrying the gun must have the CPL.

Husband/Wife Scenario, Husband has CPL, wife does not:
  • Husband can lawfully carry (open of concealed) pistols registered to wife.
  • Wife cannot lawfully carry (open nor concealed) pistols registered to the husband.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 02:16:12 PM »
Question: can I open carry with an inside the waistband/inside the pants (IWB) holster?

Answer: The Michigan Court if Appeals appears to answer this in People v Curtis Phillips (unpublished):

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/documents/michigan/court-of-appeals-unpublished/19960830_C185231(0027)_185231.OPN.PDF

Cliff Note: it's up to the "trier of fact".  That is the Judge, in a bench trial; a jury in a jury trial.

Quote
STATE OF MICHIGAN COURT OF APPEALSPEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, Plaintiff-Appellee,vCURTIS PHILLIPS,Defendant-Appellant.Before: Gribbs, P.J., and Saad and J. P. Adair,* JJ. PER CURIAM.UNPUBLISHED August 30, 1996No. 185231LC No. 94-008036Defendant appeals from his bench trial conviction for carrying a concealed weapon, MCL 750.227; MSA 28.424. Defendant was sentenced to two years probation: we affirm.Defendant argues that the evidence was insufficient to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he “concealed” a handgun because the arresting officers could see the butt of a gun protruding from his waistband. We disagree.To determine whether a rational trier of fact could have found that the essential elements of the crime were proven beyond a reasonable doubt, this Court views the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution. People v Wolfe, 440 Mich 508, 515; 489 NW2d 748 (1992). A conviction for carrying a concealed weapon without a license requires proof that the accused concealed a dangerous weapon. People v Pickett, 21 Mich App 246, 248; 175 NW2d 347 (1970). Concealment is a question of fact and exists when the weapon is “not discernible by the ordinary observation of [those] coming in contact with [the accused], casually observing him, as people do in the ordinary and usual associations of life.” People v Johnnie W Jones, 12 Mich App 293, 296; 162 NW2d 847 (1968).While searching the area for gunmen after a reported shooting, the arresting officers observed defendant standing on a nearby porch with the butt of a handgun protruding from his waistband. They were able to identify this object as the butt of a handgun based on their trainingandexperience. Theofficerswerenot“casuallyobserving”defendant“intheordinary and usual associations of life,” and this was not “ordinary observation” because the officers were searching for armed suspects. A casual observer may not have discerned the object in defendant’s waistband. Therefore, viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution, a rational trier of fact could conclude there was sufficient evidence that defendant concealed a gun in his waistband.Affirmed./s/ Roman S. Gribbs /s/ Henry William Saad /s/ James P. Adair
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).