Author Topic: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)  (Read 66735 times)

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Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 11:29:58 AM »
This document which covers all firearm related laws in the state amongst various other resources such as attorney general opinions is a must read also.  It will cover many of the items already discussed above in this thread.  This document provides comprehensive coverage of Michigan Firearm Laws.
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Offline TheQ

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2012, 03:01:58 PM »
Videos related on how to survive a police encounter:

- Don't talk to the police!

- BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters
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Offline yance

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Re: New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2013, 07:22:16 PM »
Open Carry w/out a CPL:

A person without a CPL can legally open carry a pistol as long as the pistol they are carrying has been lawfully purchased in accordance with MCL 28.422 and is registered in their name and they are at least 18 years of age.  Without a CPL you may NOT carry a firearm that belongs to and is registered to someone other than yourself.

MCL 28.422(1) states that “except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.”

As the above cited law states a person may not carry or possess a firearm without obtaining it in accordance with that particular law.  Therefore if you have obtained a firearm in accordance with MCL 28.422 by receiving a permit to purchase or by purchasing a firearm from a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer as the law dictates then you may lawfully open carry that pistol.

There are many places you should be aware of where someone without a CPL may NOT possess a firearm, which includes open carry.  The following is the list of prohibited places which is located in MCL 750.234d:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

It is very important that you pay attention to and understand what (h) in the above list is referring to.  An establishment that is licensed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission refers to any business that is licensed by the state of Michigan to sell alcohol.  The key phrase here is sell alcohol, it does not matter if it is consumed on the premises, if they are licensed to sell alcohol (and regardless of if they do) you may not possess a firearm on the premises without a valid CPL.  Premises include the parking area and surrounding property that the establishment is on. You can find out what businesses in your county are licensed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission by going to the following website:

http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

There is an exception to the above law, MCL 750.234d(2)(d):

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

If you do not have a CPL and you receive permission from the owner or agent of the owner (manager/supervisor) that you are allowed to carry while visiting their establishment then you would not be in violation of the above cited law and you can lawfully open carry at that establishment.  We encourage and suggest that the permission is given in written form so you have physical evidence that you were granted permission.

If a location that you are visiting is not listed or does not fall within the above law then you may lawfully open carry there regardless if you possess a CPL or not.

In addition to knowing where you can and cannot go you will also need to know how to get there and back, the following will review how to transport a firearm without a CPL.

Transportation without a CPL:

A person without a CPL is prohibited under MCL 750.227(2) from possessing a firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle:

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

What that means is that you cannot carry a firearm in your vehicle, in Michigan your firearm is considered concealed upon entering a vehicle therefore without a concealed pistol license you would be in violation of the law.

There is an exception for transporting a firearm however you need to be very diligent in making sure you are complying with all aspects of the law, it is very easy to slip and be facing felony charges for carrying a concealed weapon.  Below will describe how you can transport your firearm safely and lawfully for open carry if you do not have a CPL.


MCL 750.231a details how someone may lawfully transport a firearm:

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

To transport your pistol you are required to have the pistol unloaded and enclosed in a case that is designed for the storage of firearms and the encased pistol has to be in the trunk of the vehicle or if there is no trunk it has to be not easily accessible to the people in the vehicle.  It would be suggested that if you do not have a trunk to have a case that you can lock or place a lock onto, if it ever were to come into question its always best to appear to be making every attempt to comply with the law.  The pistol and magazine do NOT have to be separated as it is not a requirement under MCL 750.231a, the firearm has to be unloaded which means no magazine in the firearm and no round chambered.  The magazine can be in the same container as the firearm itself as long as the magazine is not loaded into the magazine well while you are transporting.

To ready your firearm for transportation here are the steps to follow:
Walk to the back of the vehicle with your firearms case

With both case and firearm completely outside of the vehicle find a spot to place your firearms case.

Unholster your pistol and remove the magazine and any rounds that might be chambered.

If you prefer you may place the round that was once chambered back into the magazine.

Place both the completely unloaded pistol and the (which is allowed to be loaded) magazine in your firearms case.

Place the firearm which is now located in your firearms case in the trunk of the vehicle and close the trunk.

You are ready to transport. 

If you do NOT have a trunk place the encased and completely unloaded firearm at what is preferably the furthest most point in your vehicle where you or someone else will not be able to easily access it, if you have a lock on your firearms case secure the lock into the ‘locked’ state. 

When you arrive at the destination where you can lawfully open carry you will need to retrieve your firearm from the trunk for the vehicle, or if there is no trunk from the location you placed the encased firearm.  To retrieve your firearm follow the above steps in the reverse order:

Open the trunk (or locate your encased firearm)

Take the encased firearm and yourself completely outside of the vehicle, to include the trunk space

Open the case

Load your firearm

Holster

Place the now empty container back into your trunk or vehicle if you have no trunk

Open carry.


When handling your firearm at your trunk please remember all safe firearm handling practices to avoid any unwanted accidents, the firearm is required to be handled out of necessity due to the current laws, only handle your firearm when necessary and always be safe.



Cites:

MCL 28.422: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
MCL 750.234d: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d
MCL 750.227: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227
MCL 750.231a http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-231a

Also see Michigan State Police Update #86 for more information: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

Offline TheQ

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Do "No Gun" signs have the force of law in Michigan?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 12:42:00 PM »
Q: Do "No Gun" signs on private property have the force of law in Michigan?

A: No where in Michigan law is there a special penalty or talk of "No Guns/Firearm" signs.  That being said, there are a few reasons you shouldn't carry at a privately owned place where you see a "No Gun" sign:

1. There is the legal reason: if it can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that you knew you couldn't carry there and you carry there anyways (open or concealed), you could be charged with criminal trespass.  See MCL 750.552

Quote
750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.

Sec. 552.

(1) A person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

(2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $250.00, or both.

The "No Guns" sign/policy establishes a condition on your "license" to use that private property.  If you knowingly violate the terms of that license, you are now on private property without permission -- AKA trespass.

How would the prosecutor be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt you knew of the policy?

A) There may be video of you entering the store with a friend while pointing at the sign and laughing about it.  In this case, it could be proven you saw the sign and chose to ignore it.
B) If you have been asked in the past to leave by the owner/agent of the owner, there could be documentation and/or video evidence of this.  Re-entering the property (unless you've heard from the owner/an agent of the owner otherwise) while armed would be provable trespass.

2. There is a second reason you shouldn't carry (or visit) a place that has a "no guns" policy/sign: profits.  Most businesses are in business for one reason and one reason alone: to make money.  Do you want to give a profit to someone who doesn't respect your right to self-defense?

Also businesses often contribute money to political campaigns; what type of politician would you think such a business would be apt to support? A politician that supports our rights or opposes them?

Deny these anti-gun businesses the ability to exist by denying them your patronage.

3. You're asked to leave by the owner/agent of the owner and you choose to not leave immediately.  The police can then be called and you can be arrested for trespass.  Typically when the police arrive they will ask you to leave before arresting you for trespass -- but this certainly does not have to be the case (it would just make the prosecution's case against you even better)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 03:03:31 PM by TheQ »
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Offline TheQ

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Vehicle Carry
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2013, 12:03:55 AM »
Q: I don't have a Concealed Pistol License (CPL).  Can I carry in/on a __________ (fill it in: Motorcycle, bicycle, tricycle, big wheel, 4-wheeler, snow mobile, city bus, cab, car)

A: This is a complicated answer.  For those of you with a short attention span (you know who you are), here's the short answer: NO.

For those of you that want a more in depth answer:

Quote
The applicable law in this case is MCL 750.227.  It reads, in relevant part (emphasis mine):

"(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license."

In the case of a vehicle you ride on, you aren't "in" it, but rather on it.  If you were arrested (which could certainly happen) and had a less than fully pro-gun prosecutor and judge, this question would go to the jury:

Was the thing you were in/on a "vehicle"?  The dictionary defines a vehicle as:

1. any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport: a motor vehicle; space vehicles.
2. a conveyance moving on wheels, runners, tracks, or the like, as a cart, sled, automobile, or tractor.

In the case of all of the above in the question, I'd say the answer is "yes".

With regards to a motorcycle/bicycle/other thing you ride on, I think the distinction of "in" (as 750.227) versus "on" will be lost on a jury.  Good luck to you and your lawyer selling that argument.  Sure, you can risk it.  The consequences are tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and the possibility of being found guilty of a five year felony (MCL 750.227).  Do you want to take that risk?  It's entirely up to you.  If I didn't have a CPL, would I take that risk?  Almost certainly not.

On the other hand, if you have loads of money and aren't bothered by the strong possibility of landing a felony (which will cost you your ability to own firearms) and you'd like to be a "test case", go for it.  We can refer you to some lawyers which may be happy to take your case, for a price.  By the way, almost all of these lawyers will advise you not to carry in/on ANY vehicle unless you have a CPL.

When it comes to a vehicle you are "in" (bus, car, etc.) MCL 750.227 is absolute on this answer: no, you may not legally carry.

The simple answer to avoid all of this is: get your CPL, then it is certainly legal to carry ("openly" or concealed) in/on almost any vehicle of your choosing.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 12:15:41 AM by TheQ »
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Offline SteveS

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Carry on Federal Property
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 02:57:38 PM »
Carrying weapons on federal property is entirely under the purview of federal law.  That being said, there are different laws and regulations, depending on where you are.

1.  Federal Buildings

Buildings operated by Federal Agencies, such as the IRS, SSA, USDA, etc., and Federal Courts fall under the following law:

18 USC § 930

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.


As stated, you cannot carry any weapon into a federal building.  There are a few exceptions and some have argued that self defense or having a CPL constitutes a "lawful purpose."  At this time, the government and the courts have disagreed.  The notices found at these buildings will typically contain language indicating that a CPL does not allow you to carry on federal property.  The language of the statute does not include parking lots.  In my experience, if you bring a weapon and it gets tagged by security when you are going in, they will tell you to go put it in your car and come back. 

2.  The Post Office

Besides the statute listed above, there is a regulation that applies to just the PO.

39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l)

Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.


If you have ever looked around a PO, you will find this posted.  It is more inclusive than the statute, as it includes all PO property, including the parking lot.  At present, there is an exception.  In Bonidy v. USPS, a US District Ct. found the parking lot provision to be unconstitutional.  Unfortunately for us, this only applies to Colorado, as District Court precedent only applies to that district. Ideally, this will move up and be affirmed by higher courts and apply to larger areas.

3.  National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges

This is one area where state law is important.  Under Federal Regulations, you can carry in these places if it would allowable under state law.  See 36 CFR 2.4:

(h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.

and,

50 CFR 27.42

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, persons may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national wildlife refuge in accordance with the laws of the state in which the wildlife refuge, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.

Here is a pamphlet from the US Park Service on the subject.  Please note that other federal laws still apply, including the ban on weapons in federal buildings.  Therefore, you may not carry a weapon into Ranger Stations, Visitor Centers, bathrooms, or any other US Government building on these properties.

4.  Indian Reservations

This is governed by tribal law.  There are a number of online lists, including this rather extensive one from the Handgunlaw site.  They recommend, and I agree completely, that you contact someone in authority and clarify what the rule is, preferably in writing. 

5.  US Army Corps of Engineers

See this pamphlet.  Weapons are not allowed, except if they are unloaded and stored in a vehicle. This applies to any land owned by the Corps of a Engineers.


If I have missed anything, please let me know.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 10:15:51 AM by SteveS »

Offline TheQ

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Openly carrying a gun registered to someone else
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 05:11:41 PM »
Question: I don't have a CPL.  Can I openly carry a gun registered to someone else?
Answer: No.  MCL 28.422 provides:
Quote
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

Note: you have to have a license for the pistol you are carrying.  If it is registered to someone else, you do not have a license to carry "the pistol".

There is an exception to this in MCL 28.432 for people who have a CPL:

Quote
(1) [MCL 28.422] does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.

(b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.

(c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

(d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.

(e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

(g) The regular and ordinary possession and transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
.....
(i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

Note: The person carrying the gun must have the CPL.

Husband/Wife Scenario, Husband has CPL, wife does not:
  • Husband can lawfully carry (open of concealed) pistols registered to wife.
  • Wife cannot lawfully carry (open nor concealed) pistols registered to the husband.
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Offline TheQ

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New? Start Here (Info only -- No Discussion Please)
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 02:16:12 PM »
Question: can I open carry with an inside the waistband/inside the pants (IWB) holster?

Answer: The Michigan Court if Appeals appears to answer this in People v Curtis Phillips (unpublished):

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/documents/michigan/court-of-appeals-unpublished/19960830_C185231(0027)_185231.OPN.PDF

Cliff Note: it's up to the "trier of fact".  That is the Judge, in a bench trial; a jury in a jury trial.

Quote
STATE OF MICHIGAN COURT OF APPEALSPEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, Plaintiff-Appellee,vCURTIS PHILLIPS,Defendant-Appellant.Before: Gribbs, P.J., and Saad and J. P. Adair,* JJ. PER CURIAM.UNPUBLISHED August 30, 1996No. 185231LC No. 94-008036Defendant appeals from his bench trial conviction for carrying a concealed weapon, MCL 750.227; MSA 28.424. Defendant was sentenced to two years probation: we affirm.Defendant argues that the evidence was insufficient to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he “concealed” a handgun because the arresting officers could see the butt of a gun protruding from his waistband. We disagree.To determine whether a rational trier of fact could have found that the essential elements of the crime were proven beyond a reasonable doubt, this Court views the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution. People v Wolfe, 440 Mich 508, 515; 489 NW2d 748 (1992). A conviction for carrying a concealed weapon without a license requires proof that the accused concealed a dangerous weapon. People v Pickett, 21 Mich App 246, 248; 175 NW2d 347 (1970). Concealment is a question of fact and exists when the weapon is “not discernible by the ordinary observation of [those] coming in contact with [the accused], casually observing him, as people do in the ordinary and usual associations of life.” People v Johnnie W Jones, 12 Mich App 293, 296; 162 NW2d 847 (1968).While searching the area for gunmen after a reported shooting, the arresting officers observed defendant standing on a nearby porch with the butt of a handgun protruding from his waistband. They were able to identify this object as the butt of a handgun based on their trainingandexperience. Theofficerswerenot“casuallyobserving”defendant“intheordinary and usual associations of life,” and this was not “ordinary observation” because the officers were searching for armed suspects. A casual observer may not have discerned the object in defendant’s waistband. Therefore, viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution, a rational trier of fact could conclude there was sufficient evidence that defendant concealed a gun in his waistband.Affirmed./s/ Roman S. Gribbs /s/ Henry William Saad /s/ James P. Adair
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