Author Topic: Clarification of pistol free zones  (Read 7640 times)

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Offline Jester

  • Posts: 7
Clarification of pistol free zones
« on: June 01, 2010, 07:10:10 PM »
Hello,

The information on this site has really opened my eyes and I've started passing it on when I can.

A couple areas aren't clear for me.  For reference I'm mid 30's w/cpl.

From what I understand, I can openly carry in any pistol free zones with these exceptions.
A court (federal law? Other state law?)
A casino (? As above)
Am I correct to assume a law exists that prohibits these places?  Posting them with the rest of the info would be nice, I would have researched it directly.

Further,
If I am asked to leave private property I should comply.

Now, am I correct in understanding that I can enter a school, police station while properly carrying in a owb holster?  If I am asked to leave the school, do I have to comply?  It's not private property but I would think them and the police would be overly sensitive about guns in school.  In my case, I would be picking up my kids or visiting the office.  The police station is a similar concern. While it's not private nor a court they may be overly sensitive.   

Has anyone pushed either issue and what was your experience?  Has anyone done legal research on these?

Also, most banks would be private property.  I have to assume many would excercise their right to ask me to leave.  Is this a fair statement?

Federal land, such as a post office?, has different regulations?  Is there a reference for them?

Lastly ( for now ;) ) if I am in a place posted no weapons the only thing they can do is ask me to leave even with it clearly posted?  I.e. A mall or store.

Thanks,
Rob

Offline army74

  • Posts: 66
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2010, 07:28:23 PM »
I have gone with other people who were OCing we went to a city council meeting they werent happy about it (council members) but no real problems. Have gone into the local PD was yelled at to cover it up refused to and nothing happend out of it. Have not done it in a school.

Offline Jester

  • Posts: 7
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2010, 07:48:48 PM »
Thanks for sharing  :)
Rob

Offline EM87

  • Posts: 78
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 10:21:49 AM »
I'm not sure what area of law prohibits carry in a court room, but I know that you can't carry there legally.
The casino part I believe comes from the law that has to do with casinos.  Be careful about reservation land.  Although the gaming law only prohibits carry on the casino floor, reservation land usually disallows carry on their land at all.  That can get you in trouble if you're not careful.

Private property overrules your rights when it comes to the carry of a firearm.  If asked to leave private property by anyone who has authority there, you must do so or face a trespassing charge.

Due to preemption, a local unit of government cannot restrict the possession and carry (among other things) of a firearm more than what state law allows.  Since police stations are parts of local units of government, they cannot legally make you leave just because you have a gun.  If there's a jail attached, I believe that may be different.

As for OCing on school property WITH A CPL, it is legal.  The federal gun free school zone act allows states to regulate the school zones if they so choose.  Michigan exempts CPL holders from not being able to carry OPENLY on school property.  If you have a CPL, the no-guns-within-1000-feet rule does not apply to you whether you're carrying open or concealed.  You can find this information in Michigan's gun free school zone act.  As for them being able to ask you to leave, that is up for debate as far as I'm concerned.  Some say that since public school are funded by tax dollars, it is a local unit of government and therefore subject to preemption.  Some say that they are private entities.  That might be a good question to ask separately on this forum.

Banks are private entities and are within their rights to ask you to leave.  Unless it's a local unit of government, any place can legally have you removed.  I don't agree with that, but that's a whole 'nother discussion in itself.

You may not carry on federal property.  The most common example is post offices.  You should be able to find this somewhere in federal law, but I don't know where.

If you are in a place with a posted sign and have not been asked to leave in the past, the most that can happen to you is they ask you to leave or face a trespassing charge.  Signs hold no legal weight in Michigan.

Hopefully someone will be around to cite some of this for you soon, as well as back up what I've said.  If I wasn't sure about it, I made sure I didn't write it to make it sound like I was.

Hopefully this helps!
"You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87 (from opencarry.org)

Offline Bronson

  • Posts: 554
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 02:54:40 PM »
I'm not sure what area of law prohibits carry in a court room, but I know that you can't carry there legally. 

It comes from a Michigan court administrative order.  It is still legally binding and if you attempt to carry there it will cost you big.

Here it is (it, and other admin. orders can be found HERE):

Quote
Security Policies for Court Facilities

Supreme Court Administrative Order 2001-1 states that weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy. Each court is required to submit a written policy conforming with this order to the State Court Administrator for approval. Courts are encouraged to collaborate with other entities in shared facilities and, where appropriate, to work with local funding units in developing the policy, which may be a separate plan or part of a general security program.

  The casino part I believe comes from the law that has to do with casinos. Be careful about reservation land.  Although the gaming law only prohibits carry on the casino floor, reservation land usually disallows carry on their land at all.  That can get you in trouble if you're not careful. 


http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=43201201&Dpt=&RngHigh=48702123  The quoted section is about 1/4 of the way down the page.  And I do believe that tribal land is considered sovereign and they can make their own rules.  Think of going onto tribal land like going to another state.

Quote
R 432.1212  Weapons in casino.
  Rule 212.  (1)  An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in  a
casino, except for the following entities:
  (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers,  as
defined in section 2(e) of Act No.  203  of  the  Public  Acts  of  1965,  as
amended, being § 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
  (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. § 8331.
  (c) Armored car personnel picking up  or  delivering  currency  at  secured
areas.
  (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official  duties  within  a  casino
shall, to the extent practicable, advise the  Michigan  state  police  gaming
section of their presence.
  (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty  in
a casino. 


  Private property overrules your rights when it comes to the carry of a firearm.  If asked to leave private property by anyone who has authority there, you must do so or face a trespassing charge.

Yes

   Due to preemption, a local unit of government cannot restrict the possession and carry (among other things) of a firearm more than what state law allows.  Since police stations are parts of local units of government, they cannot legally make you leave just because you have a gun.  If there's a jail attached, I believe that may be different. 

Or if their is a Court attached as some Chief Justices claim that the admin. ruling allows them to make the entire building firearm free.

Here's the PREMPTION LAW

As for OCing on school property WITH A CPL, it is legal.  The federal gun free school zone act allows states to regulate the school zones if they so choose.  Michigan exempts CPL holders from not being able to carry OPENLY on school property.  If you have a CPL, the no-guns-within-1000-feet rule does not apply to you whether you're carrying open or concealed.  You can find this information in Michigan's gun free school zone act.  As for them being able to ask you to leave, that is up for debate as far as I'm concerned.  Some say that since public school are funded by tax dollars, it is a local unit of government and therefore subject to preemption.  Some say that they are private entities. 

Here's a site that will take you to the Fed. Gun Free School Zones Act: http://vaguninfo.com/pages/gunfreeschools.htm

Yes, they are publicly funded but the school property isn't owned by the city, village, township, etc. it is owned by the school district and since school district is NOT one of the defined units of local government listed in the pre-emption law they retain the ability to operate as private property.  At least that's how it was explained to me.

If you are in a place with a posted sign and have not been asked to leave in the past, the most that can happen to you is they ask you to leave or face a trespassing charge.  Signs hold no legal weight in Michigan

Yet.  There is no case law in Michigan either way.  Some say that a sign which clearly posts the wishes of the establishment is enough notice so that if you were to carry there you could then be hit with a trespassing charge without an agent of the establishment ever having asked you to leave.  Like I said, right now this is all speculation since there is no case law on it yet.  However, the interpretation that a posted sign is sufficient notice has held up in other states.  Also watch out for this nasty trick...an officer shows up and tells you to leave.  The officer then lets you talk and try to explain yourself or state your case for a few minutes.  Then you get arrested for trespassing because you didn't immediately leave the property when instructed.

All of this is a layman's opinion and should not be taken as legal fact.

Bronson

Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline Jester

  • Posts: 7
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 09:14:07 AM »
Wow, thanks guys.  That does clear up a lot for me. 

I'm just happy that I can OC in general.  Also, I'm a very strong believer in not only my rights but that those same rights apply to others.  If I'm asked to leave, I don't feel I have the right to discuss it, collect anything, etc.  If I have other property or people with me they should collect it for me (or I can just cover up ;) )

Quote
an officer shows up and tells you to leave.  The officer then lets you talk and try to explain yourself or state your case for a few minutes.  Then you get arrested for trespassing because you didn't immediately leave the property when instructed.

Exactly.  Since you weren't detained and only interviewed (per Terry stop) you were free to go.  In short, don't push your rights down others necks or a police officer will find _something_  I don't want to 'teach those stupid cops' or 'educate ignorant criminal empowering people' I just want to protect mine and my own :)

Thanks for filling in the blanks for me guys.  I think I will avoid schools and Police stations for now.  I've got a bunch of tri-folds and LEO packets printed out (I own commercial equipment for my business) and I have been giving them to anyone that will listen ;)

Thanks,
Rob

Offline spikedawg

  • Posts: 28
  • weidman michigan
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2010, 04:15:05 PM »
 reservation land usually disallows carry on their land at all.  That can get you in trouble if you're not careful.

 
ok, so most of the county i live in is reservation land,  so your saying i cant carry here?  i live in isabella county

Offline Bronson

  • Posts: 554
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2010, 04:34:51 PM »
reservation land usually disallows carry on their land at all.  That can get you in trouble if you're not careful.

 
ok, so most of the county i live in is reservation land,  so your saying i cant carry here?  i live in isabella county

As I understand it....

If it is reservation land it belongs to the tribe and they get to make the rules.  If you want to carry there I'd suggest getting written permission from the governing body of the land.

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline spikedawg

  • Posts: 28
  • weidman michigan
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2010, 06:32:40 PM »
i will be getting clarifaction on this, i'm going to contact the sheriff's office and/or the proscuter's office. i'll let you know what i find out.  if its so than im VERY limited where i can carry.

Offline spikedawg

  • Posts: 28
  • weidman michigan
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2010, 06:48:47 PM »
oh this is just great !  was just informed by the girlfriend that we live on reservation land, so does this meen i cant carry on my own property ?  its not like we pay property taxs to the indians !   ???

Offline drtodd

  • MOC Member
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  • Posts: 145
  • MOC Charter Member
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 10:13:12 PM »
the officer then lets you talk and try to explain yourself or state your case for a few minutes.  Then you get arrested for trespassing because you didn't immediately leave the property when instructed.

Bronson



Just another reason to "Not Talk w/ The Police"
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline Bronson

  • Posts: 554
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 03:16:51 AM »
i will be getting clarifaction on this, i'm going to contact the sheriff's office and/or the proscuter's office. i'll let you know what i find out.  if its so than im VERY limited where i can carry.

Please do.  I'd like to hear what they have to say about it.

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline Evil Creamsicle

  • Commie Rifle Fetishist
  • Posts: 156
Re: Clarification of pistol free zones
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2010, 01:56:52 PM »
Another thing to keep in mind:

BANK:

Legal with CPL

FEDERAL RESERVE BANK:

NOT Legal
Once armed, a free man can never be disarmed. Only defeated.