Author Topic: Interesting event at Copper Grill In Paw Paw MI (Read 16495 times)

autosurgeon · « **on:** June 25, 2013, 02:00:42 PM »

NOTE this happened to my brother today at Copper Grill in Paw Paw

Mosnar87 went to Paw Paw to have a new tires installed on his Motorcycle. While he was waiting he walked up the hill and had breakfast at Copper Grill. Since it takes awhile to have tires installed he was there for an hour and thirty minutes or so.

At this point he needed to use the bathroom so off he goes. When he comes out a Paw Paw LEO is standing there and asks is he having a good day? Mosnar87 responds yes and the LEO says I need to talk to you. He then asks my brother if he would like to sit down as he takes a seat at an empty booth. My brother declines and remains standing.

The officer then informs my brother that he cannot switch between CC and OC or carry both ways. My brother is carrying in a shoulder rig which was concealed until he took off his Motorcycle Jacket. He also tells my brother he needs to see ID. Mosnar87 declines to give any ID several times. Then he tells the officer perhaps it would be good if you go talk to your supervisor and look-up MSP Legal Update 86. The officer asks for ID again once again my brother declines.

At this point the officer says what is legal update 86? My brother says "a document developed by the state police from the perspective of you the police officer so that you will not make these types of mistakes" The officer then went out to his car and talked on the radio for awhile. During this time the bike shop called and told my brother his bike was done. He paid his bill and left the Copper Grill on foot and walked down the hill and got his bike and headed home. He stopped by my house and relayed what had happened to me and since he needs to get some sleep before he goes in to work (he works 2nd shift) I told him I would type and post this.

NOTE the officer did not make any further contact with him when he left the Copper Grill. Also the Copper Grill has no problem with OC we have held OC dinner s there. My guess is a customer called it in.

He wanted everyone to know that he wishes he had his recorder running but that he has gotten complacent since it has been several years since we have been hassled over here. I expect his recorder will be on him from now on! On a positive NOTE the officer never got his name and since his Bike was not in the parking lot he has no idea who my brother is.

I plan to go there for dinner today and OC in the same way and see what happens...

Normally my brother carries a concealed BUG but today he did not... if he had he may have needed to disclose and the officer would have gotten his name and ID most likely... all the more reason to carry OC with your BUG.

fozzy71 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2013, 03:24:36 PM »

Time for me to get a LH safariland and just OC two full sizes instead of pocket carrying my BUG.

gryphon · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2013, 04:51:58 PM »

Quote from: fozzy71 on June 25, 2013, 03:24:36 PM

Time for me to get a LH safariland and just OC two full sizes instead of pocket carrying my BUG.

I do that on occasion, but feel like cmdr_iceman when I do.

TheQ · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2013, 05:40:06 PM »

Quote from: gryphon on June 25, 2013, 04:51:58 PM

I do that on occasion, but feel like cmdr_iceman when I do.

Gonna wear a flak jacket outside your clothing too?

He OCs his BUG at 6:00 -- awful place.

gryphon · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2013, 05:47:50 PM »

Quote from: TheQ on June 25, 2013, 05:40:06 PM

He OCs his BUG at 6:00 -- awful place.

I know. Although I think one time I saw in a thread he was wearing it at 9:00, but yeah, I've asked him about his 6:00.

jgillmanjr · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2013, 08:34:40 AM »

Why the hell would you OC at 6:00?

Concealed it makes sense, but open?

TucTom · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2013, 09:02:08 AM »

looks like I know where I will be going for lunch today. I think 12:30 will be lunch today.

Donut · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2013, 01:40:53 PM »

Normally my brother carries a concealed BUG but today he did not... if he had he may have needed to disclose and the officer would have gotten his name and ID most likely... all the more reason to carry OC with your BUG.
[/quote] Why?. I thought that if you were not doing anything wrong that you didn't have to show ID or your CPL.

TucTom · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2013, 01:50:51 PM »

Lunch was good. Local Sheriff Deputy came in to eat with a small group. Chatted with a retired LEO on my way out. Saw his Fl plate and he gave me a thumbs up. We chatted for a good 5 minutes. He was Pro 2nd and I explained some of the laws here.

Hammurabi · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2013, 02:05:02 PM »

Quote from: Donut on June 26, 2013, 01:40:53 PM

Why?. I thought that if you were not doing anything wrong that you didn't have to show ID or your CPL.

From 28.425f:

Quote

(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology.

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

You don't have to show an ID or CPL unless it's requested, but that is likely to be the first thing asked after the mandatory disclosure.

Donut · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2013, 03:37:47 PM »

thanks for the reply.
so any common person even those that do not have a gun and doing nothing suspicious have to show their ID.
That would seem to be more like harassment.
yes i do understand that you have disclose you are carrying but if you are not doing nothing suspicious then they shouldn't be asking for id/proof. This whole thing seems to be a gray area especially if the Leo is misinformed. what about the brochure that is being passed around.
that goes something like this.
""Am I being detained
Am I under arrest.

And no respect to LEO", me I'd just be polite and show my Id info.

Bronson · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2013, 05:08:33 PM »

The problem is what is "suspicious" to you may be very different to what is "suspicious" to me or to an LEO. It's a subjective requirement and one that the courts almost always side with the officers on. It may be something as simple as you look kind of,a little bit, in the right light, and if you look just the right way, almost like a guy that they're looking for.

Bronson

linux203 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2013, 10:02:11 PM »

Quote from: Hammurabi on June 26, 2013, 02:05:02 PM

You don't have to show an ID or CPL unless it's requested, but that is likely to be the first thing asked after the mandatory disclosure.

From 28.425f:
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology.

If you are carrying a concealed bug, you must disclose. If you only have a open carried primary firearm, there is no requirement to disclose or have/produce your CPL/State ID.

OC requires you to have a license and if you've purchased the pistol within 30 days, you are supposed to have the RI-60 on you. There is no requirement to produce it. MCL 28.422

Kutter616 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2013, 05:21:48 AM »

Quote from: autosurgeon on June 25, 2013, 02:00:42 PM

NOTE this happened to my brother today at Copper Grill in Paw Paw

The officer then informs my brother that he cannot switch between CC and OC or carry both ways.

Is this really true? Nobody has commented on this statement and it seems illogical to me.
There are two parts here and I have not seen anything that says you can't do either:
1. Switch between OC and CC.
2. Carry both ways.

mosnar87 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2013, 06:37:02 AM »

Quote from: Kutter616 on June 28, 2013, 05:21:48 AM

Is this really true? Nobody has commented on this statement and it seems illogical to me.
There are two parts here and I have not seen anything that says you can't do either:
1. Switch between OC and CC.
2. Carry both ways.

The officer was completely wrong. That is why I referred him to MSP 86.

dlgeorge · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:03:59 AM »

MSP Legal Update #86 is awesome. It's the most comprehensive document on the subject I've seen. I keep a copy on me whenever I open carry in Michigan, just in case I run into an "under-informed" LEO.

Kutter616 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:54:11 AM »

Quote from: mosnar87 on June 28, 2013, 06:37:02 AM

The officer was completely wrong. That is why I referred him to MSP 86.

Thanks! That's what I thought. I have MSP 86 but didn't know if something new has transpired that I haven't heard of.
Thanks again!

Glock9mmOldStyle · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:52:49 PM »

Quote from: gryphon on June 25, 2013, 04:51:58 PM

I do that on occasion, but feel like cmdr_iceman when I do.

I bought twin FNX-45's just for that reason.

The commander is a tough act to follow, but I'm doing my very best.

gryphon · « **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2013, 01:06:47 AM »

Quote from: Glock9mmOldStyle on June 28, 2013, 11:52:49 PM

I bought twin FNX-45's just for that reason. The commander is a tough act to follow, but I'm doing my very best.

I will, on occasion, wear twin FNH Five-seveNs. No ballistic vest, though.

Sterling · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2013, 07:03:31 PM »

Quote from: Bronson on June 26, 2013, 05:08:33 PM

The problem is what is "suspicious" to you may be very different to what is "suspicious" to me or to an LEO. It's a subjective requirement and one that the courts almost always side with the officers on. It may be something as simple as you look kind of,a little bit, in the right light, and if you look just the right way, almost like a guy that they're looking for.

You're confusing the Layman's definition of 'suspicious' with the legal standard of reasonable articulable suspicion, which must be based on reasonable and articulable facts, taken from rational inferences (from those facts), that a specific crime is about to be / is being / has been committed.

News:

Author Topic: Interesting event at Copper Grill In Paw Paw MI (Read 16495 times)