UGB: Hurley Hospital

[bluwc]

So I entered the hospital through the ER this morning (our baby is dehydrated some). Upon entry there was a metal detector so I immediately disclosed I had a concealed firearm on me. They told me that firearms were not allowed so I showed them my CPL and explained I was exempt from pistol free zones. The one guard stated that it was against hospital policy for me to carry my firearm. I asked if the hospital was owned by the city of Flint; therefore'it was public and that I didn't have to remove my pistol. The guard asked if I was working and I told him no, either I'm exempt or in not according to law. The other guard stated that it was a public hospital and he agreed with me. They called a supervisor and asked him to come talk to me. I asked him if this was owned by the city of Flint and he told me it was a non profit organization Hurley Medical Group and it was private property. At that point I didn't argue and checked my gun. I know I saw on a ballet where the City wanted the rest of the county to fund Hurley. So here's my question, is Hurley a non profit or is it owned by the city?

[bluwc]

Please excuse spelling/Grammer,  I'm on my phone and it does a lot of auto correct.

[ken243]

To the best of my knowledge Hurley is a NPO. So they may prohibit firearms. It is also posted signs at the ER that guns are not allowed. However, other entrances do not have such signs. I have open carried at every hospital in Genesee county without issue. You may want to contact an attorney to get the facts straight. May I suggest, Melissa Pearce 248-467-1930 mpearce@melissapearcelaw.com . Toss her a few bucks for her time to be polite and I bet she would be happy to look into it for you and help you with future issues or questions.

[ken243]

I immediately disclosed I had a concealed firearm on me.

Also, open carry would be required at a hospital.

[bluwc]

Why would I have to open carry when my CPL has the exempt from pistol free zone box checked? I have every legal right to carry in a pfz, open or concealed. My original understanding was the city of Flint owned Hurley, a public hospital. It was on our ballet (illegally) where they wanted a millage to fund the hospital. The workers there (security) are considered public servants. I guess I have some research to do. Thanks for the attorney information.

[bluwc]

I checked property records through the City of Flint tax accessor. The city is the owner of the hospital, making this a public hospital not protected by laws governing private property. I asked my neighbor who is a nurse there and she confirmed that the City did own the hospital but stated that it was private property and any policy or ordinance the City made would supersede any state law. I asked her how the City came up with the logic that City trumps State and she didn't respond. Ken, I sent an email to the attorney you recommended so I guess we'll see what happens.

[ken243]

My apologies. I assumed you didn't have the nifty exemption box check. Guess that is what assuming gets me. Good luck. Let me know how it works out. Being a Paramedic I am there all the time and would be very interested in this. Go around to the "back" of the building where the helipad is. That is the ambulance entrance. You can see the no guns sign posted. I will take a picture next time I go there.

[ken243]

By the way, best wishes for a speedy recovery for your little one.

[CV67PAT]

Why would I have to open carry when my CPL has the exempt from pistol free zone box checked? I have every legal right to carry in a pfz, open or concealed. My original understanding was the city of Flint owned Hurley, a public hospital. It was on our ballet (illegally) where they wanted a millage to fund the hospital. The workers there (security) are considered public servants. I guess I have some research to do. Thanks for the attorney information.

Are they actual City of Flint employees? Or are they contract employees?

[bluwc]

I'm not sure, the guard was complaining about Obamacare and they were considered public service Jobs and had to comply. He followed me out apologizing when I went to get the diaper bag. I schooled him on laws and told him I believed my rights were violated and I would be following up.  I don't think it matters so much about who is employed rather than who owns the hospital. I also wrote a letter to the AG asking their opinion. I'll let you know

Thanks, the little one is fine and not dehydrated. He had a little virus and his behavior is expected. But what am I to do, my wife over reacts and she's the boss lol. I guess better safe than sorry but I think my Co pay is 100, so that's an expensive reassurance for her. .....

[CV67PAT]

I thought that because you stated they were "public servants" that you felt it was relevant.

You will not get an "opinion" from the AG. The AG only provides an opinion in response to inquiries from certain entities. Individuals are not one of the entities to who's inquiries the AG will opine.

[linux203]

People have requested their legislators request an opinion from the AG.

Don't expect an official AG answer. It will probably be written by a deputy if a reply is ever made.

[ken243]

Here is the sign at the ambulance entrance.

[autosurgeon]

What exception does your pfz exemption fall under? Are you a reserve? Just curious as the checkbox means nothing without the credential to back it up.

Sent from my LG Optimus G using Tapatalk 2

[TheQ]

Privately owned property can set rules banning guns over state law -- OC or CC

[CV67PAT]

Privately owned property can set rules banning guns over state law -- OC or CC

Hurley Medical Center is a publicly owned, nonprofit teaching hospital that is governed by a volunteer community board of managers. The Mayor of the City of Flint appoints members to the Hurley Board of Managers subject to the approval of the Flint City Council.

http://www.hurleyfoundation.org/?id=45&sid=1

[bluwc]

So it is owned by the city and they have say with their board of directors, so by definition it is public property. I'll wait for my replies (from the attorney and AG) and let everyone know what they say. And my pfz exemption is from Professional Investigator licensed with the State by Public Act 285 of 1965. With regards to those who can be exempt, the law does not distinguish between any of them (ie giving one more importance over the other). Either you're exempt or your not......

[bluwc]

Oh and Ken, security was carrying on that the hospital didn't like the ambulance entrance to the emergency because that bypassed security and they had no way of knowing if the people who hitched a ride on your rig had a weapon. I guess someone brought it to their attention that they would be interfering with patient care and those seconds could mean life or death, so they haven't done anything about it. The way he talked, they were still discussing their options on how to go about making that area more secure. Not sure if this is a new battle or one that's been discussed for some time. Seems ridiculous to me. 

[ken243]

Oh and Ken, security was carrying on that the hospital didn't like the ambulance entrance to the emergency because that bypassed security and they had no way of knowing if the people who hitched a ride on your rig had a weapon. I guess someone brought it to their attention that they would be interfering with patient care and those seconds could mean life or death, so they haven't done anything about it. The way he talked, they were still discussing their options on how to go about making that area more secure. Not sure if this is a new battle or one that's been discussed for some time. Seems ridiculous to me.

Must be a new guy or gal. Just to the right of  that sign is a big window to the security office. They see us pull in. Just inside the door a security guard has an x-ray machine to scan bags and a wand to check people. Every patient and family members with them is checked for weapons. Once checked it takes a badge over a sensor to open the doors to the ER. Only security and EMS personnel have these ID badges to open the doors. 

Keep us updated.

[bigt8261]

If the hospital really was private property, then you would have no duty to disclose. Assuming the city doesn't provide actual police as guards.

If the hospital is public, then it comes down to whether or not the guard is a peace officer.

MCL 28.425f

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

MCL 28.421

(1) As used in this act:

(d) "Peace officer" means, except as otherwise provided in this act, an individual who is employed as a law enforcement officer, as that term is defined under section 2 of the commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.602, by this state or another state, a political subdivision of this state or another state, or the United States, and who is required to carry a firearm in the course of his or her duties as a law enforcement officer.

FWIW

[bluwc]

I know I had no duty to disclose but I can't avoid the metal detector and bypass the two guards, so that's why I did. Ken, your attorney advised me to write a letter to the board which I will do and I contacted another attorney out of Oakland County who stated that I definitely have a winnable case but what are my damages? He advised the jury may only award $1 in damages and my legal fees would be 25k-40k so I have to ask myself, is it worth it? I guess at this point, 25k-40k bill to prove a point isn't worth it to me. And yet the City will get to continue civil rights violations until someone spends that type of cash to challenge it. This not only affects me but open carry as well. I understand I am exempt to conceal but if someone who wasn't exempt and carried openly as State law allows, I would guarantee they wouldn't get through security at the ER entrance. I'm still waiting for the AG to reply

[ken243]

Your damages are denying you entry to your child in the manner you see fit while perfectly legal. You have damages in my opinion. Or, next time just walk through the metal detector and by the guards. Show them your CPL and walk away. They stop you, call the police there are your damages. You are right, it should not be that hard. If you want to pass it up, I will take it on when I am done with this.

[bluwc]

So here's an update

On Monday I contacted the hospital attorney Bill Smith and stated my concerns. Thanks CV67PAT for the link, that was my first statement. I indicated that per their website and tax records through the city assessor's office, the city owned the hospital. I informed him premption applies and urged him to have the hospital comply with State law. His reply was"I'm not denying that". He told me that he would investigate the situation and get back with me.

Late Tuesday he called my phone twice. I didn't hear it so called back. He informed me that the hospital will be changing their weapons policy. He said he didn't know the specifics but told me I would be happy. He said it will take about a month for the new policy to be written and have the staff trained. So far this looks like a good move without a legal battle.

[TheQ]

Sweet!

[Jeff]

That's great to hear, good work.  Keep us posted on what they actually do.

[Pr0jeCt]

So... what did they do?

[TheQ]

Wiki says this is an NPO. As a private org they may lawfully ban guns as they please.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurley_Medical_Center


I'm moving this out of gov abuse as it's not a gov

[CV67PAT]

Wiki says this is an NPO. As a private org they may lawfully ban guns as they please.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurley_Medical_Center


I'm moving this out of gov abuse as it's not a gov

It's publicly owned. It's board is appointed by the Mayor of Flint, with the approval of the City Council. Looks like a "Local Unit of Government" with a fancy name.

[Jeff]

I can't seem to figure out if my local hospital is considered public or private either

[CV67PAT]

I can't seem to figure out if my local hospital is considered public or private either

What hospital is it?

[Jeff]

What hospital is it?

William Beaumont Hospital (royal oak) also has a troy location.  I think formally known as beaumont health system.

It also says non profit but I can't seem to find anything else out, or I just don't know exactly what to look for.

[CV67PAT]

That's a privately owned facility. Part of the St Johns network of hospitals.

[Jeff]

That's a privately owned facility. Part of the St Johns network of hospitals.

How did you figure that out, what should I have been looking for?

Also I thought for sure those were separate hospitals.

OK ANOTHER EDIT:  I was told by an employee that they are not affiliated with St Johns.

[woodtic31]

This has nothing to do with Hurley. Just thought I would tell about my experience at Grayling Mercy Hospital.

I went to get blood drawn on a Saturday this past fall. I was running errands around town also, so I was OC'ing. I did not know what the hospitals policy was on OC so because I was in a hurry and wanting  to avoid a conflict, I left my pistol in the truck with Cindy. (yes she has a CPL ). I ask the front desk about their policy and the lady had no idea. I had my blood drawn and as I left the building the janitor yelled out " Hey you lost something". I shook my head and asked him what he was talking about. He pointed to my holster and said " you lost your gun ". Told him about not knowing the policy and  he told me. " I've never heard of one. Doesn't matter anyhow. They will call me because I am also security and as far as I'm concerned you can carry all you want. Some people may get nervous, but the will get over it." So we had a conversation about OC and and gave him a few Tri-folds.
Have to get blood drawn in a few more weeks. I sure hope that janitor is on duty cause I'm gonna test them!

[CV67PAT]

How did you figure that out, what should I have been looking for?

Also I thought for sure those were separate hospitals.

OK ANOTHER EDIT:  I was told by an employee that they are not affiliated with St Johns.

You're right they aren't. They just network their patient information. My doc has direct access to St Johns and Beaumont but has to request info from Huron Valley or McLaren.

[Pr0jeCt]

So... what did they do?

[CV67PAT]

So... what did they do?

[karudin]

Well my son had to be transported to hurley and they have signs posted everywhere saying no weapons regardless of conceal permit. I'll take a pic later and post it.

[CV67PAT]

Well my son had to be transported to hurley and they have signs posted everywhere saying no weapons regardless of conceal permit. I'll take a pic later and post it.

Public hospital.

[karudin]

Public hospital.

yeah I know but son is only a day old so don't feel like fighting them about it.

[SD40VE]

yeah I know but son is only a day old so don't feel like fighting them about it.

im guessing it was a priority type of thing, son gets transported.to hopsital, his priority was getting to his son. not arguing with the security staff.

[CV67PAT]

yeah I know but son is only a day old so don't feel like fighting them about it.

Not suggesting you do. Just a statement of fact.

[karudin]

Here is the sign they have everywhere.

[Pr0jeCt]

cute sign.

[SD40VE]

cute sign.

since its a public hospital, its a illegal sign

[linux203]

In light of the syringe attack at a Home Depot, a syringe of any length should be prohibited too.

[lilteddyp]

I have to go to Hurley in the morning for my son to have a procedure. I am a CPL holder, so is it for sure a public owned hospital and I'm OK to OC? I don't really like going to flint and like it even less "naked"

[jasoncw]

Yes it is publicly owned. One of  only a few in the state. Most are privately owned.