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Offline sircapsalot

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OC or CC?
« on: October 07, 2013, 11:43:54 AM »
  I have a question about this holster here...



Minus the jacket, is this holster considered open carry?  My gut says no, and i think the law would say no as well.. because it's not "fully visible" even though my intent is *not* to conceal, part of the pistol is still concealed.

The reason I ask, is because when i went to a 2A picnic, i saw somebody OC like this, and was curious of the legality of it.
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Offline FASBOLD

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 01:09:45 PM »
I think this is something that has not been tested in a court of law. In the MOC seminars I have attended this is described as CC and an OWB (Outside the Waist Ban) holster, with a retention system, is recommended.

I have had police officers say it is not CC, but that probably leaves it up to the interpretation of an arresting officer and then court to determine who is right.

If one has a CPL this would be OK carry in a place where CC is not prohibited. In a prohibited place where a CPL holder can OC, this would go back to the same issue as above.

Someone more familiar with this may correct me on this. I think the official MOC position on this is don't do this unless you have the time and money to go to court to find out if it is OK or not.
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Offline bigt8261

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 01:46:38 PM »
The threshold for whether or not a person is CCing is whether or not a reasonable person is able to determine you are armed. Unfortunately, that means it is up for interpretation and is thus gray area. Bottom line: we don't know and it would take a lot of time and money to figure it out.

There are cases where people have been arrested and charged for CCing while carrying IWB, but none of those cases have made it far enough to set precedent.

MOC recommends that if you do not have the money or time to fight a legal battle, that you er on the side of caution and carry OWB. That being said, if you would like to be a test case, I have $20 for your legal fund and will do what I can to support you in court.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 03:01:41 PM »
While it could technically be Open carrying and in my opinion it is.  It would be up to a judge to determine that and I personally wouldn't want a grey area.  Many people that I have spoken with have had an officer try the "you are concealed carrying" thing on them even when they are OWB.  They will claim your jacket or shirt is covering the gun and often force people to pull out their blue cards just so they don't get charged with concealed carrying.  I wouldn't risk/test it unless you had ample time and money to battle it out in court.

I want to get an IWB holster and try it out myself, but I will have my CPL in just over 2 weeks.  (not try to get arrested and battle it in court, I just mean see how it feels on my body)
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Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2013, 03:11:14 PM »
@jeff - you aren't missing much. I OC & CC daily...hardly know the OC holsters are there. However the CC's are always a pain (litterally at times). The only CC holster that is fairly comfortable from my experience are the pocket holsters for mouse guns.  Think about sitting in the car/chair etc... with many CC holsters you'll be very glad to stand up when you get the chance.  ;)
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Offline gryphon

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 03:50:35 PM »
As others have said, it is a grey area and I would not carry this way without a CPL.  A similar thing happened in, I believe, NC.  A police officer arrested someone for carrying concealed this way.  In court the cop was asked, "How did you know he was carrying a concealed weapon?" The cop said, "I saw it."

So the judge threw it out.  Nevertheless, the guy had to go to court over it.  NC has since changed the wording of their laws, but the same thing could happen here.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 04:23:20 PM »
Quote from: Glock9mmOldStyle on October 07, 2013, 03:11:14 PM
@jeff - you aren't missing much. I OC & CC daily...hardly know the OC holsters are there. However the CC's are always a pain (litterally at times). The only CC holster that is fairly comfortable from my experience are the pocket holsters for mouse guns.  Think about sitting in the car/chair etc... with many CC holsters you'll be very glad to stand up when you get the chance.  ;)

Well I am kind of a giant FAT guy and I wear my pants up high.  So I can bend over without... (I'm sure you know what I mean).  Because of that, part of my gut pushes against the grip of the gun and shoves it out further from my body than that of a normal sized person.  Makes it more difficult to conceal since the gun rests on me like this... body ----> )/   <-----gun

It definitely bulges my shirt out some.  Although even if I bulge some wile CC, it's still concealed I just can't hide it as well as others.  Maybe I need a better belt until I work off the girth.
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Offline sircapsalot

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 04:28:45 PM »
Since I have my CPL, I was trying to decide whether or not to go to Lansing like this or not.  I think i might just end up CC'ing.. I still haven't found a Safariland ALS holster for my Glock 19.

I have 0 retention in both my holsters, they are both just friction, so I hadn't gotten a chance to really OC with my Glock 19 yet. 
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Offline fozzy71

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 06:21:13 PM »
Quote from: sircapsalot on October 07, 2013, 04:28:45 PM
Since I have my CPL, I was trying to decide whether or not to go to Lansing like this or not.  I think i might just end up CC'ing.. I still haven't found a Safariland ALS holster for my Glock 19.

I have 0 retention in both my holsters, they are both just friction, so I hadn't gotten a chance to really OC with my Glock 19 yet.

Opticsplanet should have what you need but you will probably have to wait 3 to 4 weeks for them to get it and ship it to you to get what you want.  6377-283-XXX is what you need for the ALS with belt loops and last 3 x's will be color.  I prefer the SLS 6287 for OC.
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Offline gryphon

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 06:57:07 PM »
If you are worrying about OCing without a retention holster, this event is probably the one place you shouldn't have to worry about it too much.  You will be surrounded by armed citizens. So go ahead and OC "IWB" if you want.
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Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 07:05:20 PM »
Quote from: sircapsalot on October 07, 2013, 04:28:45 PM
Since I have my CPL, I was trying to decide whether or not to go to Lansing like this or not.  I think i might just end up CC'ing.. I still haven't found a Safariland ALS holster for my Glock 19.

I have 0 retention in both my holsters, they are both just friction, so I hadn't gotten a chance to really OC with my Glock 19 yet.

Since you have your CPL that holster is perfectly legal to use in public and in the Capitol. Just don't assume it's OC if you go into a GFZ.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 07:50:18 PM by Golden Eagle »
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Offline LD

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 07:41:36 PM »
DO NOT carry with that holster and no cover garment in TX or FL.
You WILL be arrested for open carry.

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Offline linux203

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 09:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Jeff on October 07, 2013, 04:23:20 PM
Makes it more difficult to conceal since the gun rests on me like this... body ----> )/   <-----gun

Have you tried concealed carry at 5 o'clock?  Not exactly sure of your body structure, but I can conceal easier farther around back.  I have more of a beer gut figure.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC or CC?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 09:35:14 PM »
Quote from: linux203 on October 08, 2013, 09:10:16 PM
Have you tried concealed carry at 5 o'clock?  Not exactly sure of your body structure, but I can conceal easier farther around back.  I have more of a beer gut figure.

Yes I can, I was thinking about it a lot recently.  It seems odd to have it back that far but it's definitely do-able and will conceal just fine as long as it passes my side fat and in the 5'o'clock position it will just fine.  My holster already has a 12 degree cant on it too so it would probably work I would just have to get used to carrying it back there.

I know a lot of people do it in that position anyways even without any weight problems.  I will give it a try, thanks for the suggestion.
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