Article/editorial at the CTD blog. If MOC members can stand visiting a CTD website, consider comment-bombing it. Here's my contribution (comment #98). Note that you may see these remarks repeated in some fashion in the next MOC Newsletter.
http://cdn2.cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=49704+++++
Wow. There is so much bad information and untruth in these comments. But let’s first address the article. It seems the author’s main point is to know the law, and with that I cannot disagree. When you assert your rights, make sure you are legal in all your actions. Of course, this won’t necessarily stop law enforcement from unlawfully abusing or arresting you, but more on that later.
As for IDing to law enforcement, states have different laws. If you are required to ID, then do so. In Michigan, the state where I live, there is no general requirement to provide ID to law enforcement, so I would not.
I open carry, and have been doing so for three years. I have never been stopped yet, but my position is not to ID, not to answer any questions (not even to say I’m not going to answer any questions), and keep asking the LEO if I am free to go. If he/she refuses, I would ask for a shift supervisor. There are a number of reasons for this. I personally do not trust law enforcement. Not all are untrustworthy, but the problem is I don’t know which ones are and which ones aren’t. They don’t seem to police their ranks very well. Also, since stop and ID is not the law, I don’t want law enforcement to be able to act like it is.
South Carolina is contemplating passing a constitutional carry law right now. That means not only will they not be required to possess a concealed carry license, but they will finally be able to openly carry. The police are against it because—in their words—someone could be walking down the street openly carrying a firearm and they couldn’t stop them unless they committed a crime! Isn’t that the way it’s supposed to be?
Some people think open carrying is an invitation for trouble, and that every cop that sees you will stop you. That simply is not the case. Open carry is legal in 45 states, and in most states as long as you are lawfully carrying a holstered sidearm you will not be bothered. Where open carry gets notice is when people carry long guns outside of 2A or political rallies. The fact is that out of 330 million Americans and 100 million gun owners, only a handful of people do this. This really isn’t a problem. And much like open carry of a pistol, or interracial dating, maybe one day it will not be looked down upon. But I don’t try to provoke the police, and 99% of open carriers don’t either. We just go about our daily lives protecting ourselves as we see fit. And in some instances open carry is required. Again, using my state as an example, you cannot obtain a concealed carry license until you are 21 years of age, so if you are between the ages of 18 and 21 you must open carry. Likewise, Michigan has several gun-free zones where concealed carry is prohibited, such as schools, day cares, sports arenas, stadiums, churches, bars, entertainment facilities with a 2,500 seating capacity, hospitals, college dorm or classroom, or casinos, so open carry is your only option should you wish to protect yourself in any of those locations.
As far as cooperating with the police, and “just give them your ID,” we don’t allow the police to search our homes just because they want to. We should be secure in our persons the same way. The police have a record of using your ID against you. Let me give you some examples.
Recently an Ohio man was “detained” and had his pistol confiscated by police for openly carrying it. They demanded he identify himself, but Oho has no general requirement to ID to law enforcement, so he refused. The police threatened to charge him with “reckless inconvenience” and “noise disturbance.” Under continued threats the man eventually gave the police his ID. Note that they never arrested him. Had they done so, they would have taken his wallet and had his ID. They then proceeded to charge him with “obstruction of justice” anyway. He is now suing the Riverside police department for $3.6 million in compensatory and punitive damages.
Here in Michigan, we had a LEO ask an OCer for ID “for his report.” The OCer complied. Two weeks later the OCer received a ticket in the mail for “disturbing the peace.” The OCer was able to get the charge thrown out in court, but it never would have happened had the OCer not shown the cop his ID.
In another Michigan case, two women who were both OCing were charged with “failure to immediately ID” ten days after the encounter, even though by law they were not required to ID at all because they were not concealing. That case also took time and money to fight, all because they IDed without being required to by law.
Let’s look at some recent events in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania has a firearms preemption law similar to Michigan’s. Many municipalities still have “No Firearms” signage up in buildings and public areas (parks, etc.) and the police are still attempting to enforce no firearms by intimidation. If that doesn’t work, they ask for ID. If that doesn’t work, they video record the participants and attempt to ID them. If they can follow them to their car that helps them correlate a license plate with the picture they’ve taken. Then they will cite them by mail and attempt to prosecute them.
The point is that police can and will use your ID against you. We all go about our daily lives in a somewhat solitary position. If you are not legally required to provide ID, why should you? There is no benefit to you, and a very real liability for you if you do.
As to the people above and others who say that an OCer will be the first one shot, all I can say is “I hate it when that happens.”
Comment by Dan Griffin — October 14, 2013 @ 2:02 pm
