Author Topic: Valued Michigan open Carry members  (Read 43957 times)

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Offline cabman1

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Valued Michigan open Carry members
« on: June 21, 2010, 07:54:34 AM »
Valued Michigan open Carry members,

Are we working for a common goal OR ........?WHAT is your Goal? What should MOC inc Goal be......?  We need to start working a a whole team instead of a splinter groups.  We need a Awareness  drive. We need at least 500 members working on the same goal soon. Especially if we want to taken seriously!!!! Please think about Victory . The world reads what You post and Judges Us by Your statements.



Sincerely,
Gordon Cannon
Soon to be extinct pro Gun MemberFeel free to email me gcannon@miopencarry.org

« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:00:08 AM by cabman1 »
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc or the law.

Offline TaxWhat

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 08:41:01 AM »
Please note ......................................lack of reply ?              God Bless go cabman go 

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 09:46:22 AM »
No some people would rather pee on the camp fire...
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline wardog6t

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 01:29:10 PM »
Not that anyone would want comments from the peanut gallery. However someone stated supporting and even helping to get elected officials whom support and would strive to expand our 2nd amendment rights.
"Any day you don't hear a "POP" and "WHIZ" is a Wonderful day....."

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2010, 01:49:27 PM »
Not that anyone would want comments from the peanut gallery. However someone stated supporting and even helping to get elected officials whom support and would strive to expand our 2nd amendment rights.

The membership can do this ... However due to MOC's non profit status the organization cannot endorse any candidates. We can however hold events that all candidates are invited too.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline wardog6t

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2010, 02:31:51 PM »
One other apsect is of a marketing nature. Although I do not know the details of MOC.INC financial records. I could forsee a TV commercial in the works as another marketing tool to announce the fact that OC is legal.
"Any day you don't hear a "POP" and "WHIZ" is a Wonderful day....."

Offline cabman1

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2010, 02:39:33 PM »
Not that anyone would want comments from the peanut gallery. However someone stated supporting and even helping to get elected officials whom support and would strive to expand our 2nd amendment rights.

I take all comment that are of constructive nature into consideration.  That being said I agree with you and autosurgeon and plan on doing some of this stuff this year!!!
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc or the law.

Offline wardog6t

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2010, 02:47:48 PM »
Even a radio commerical on one of the top FM stations might be a cost effective marketing tool.
"Any day you don't hear a "POP" and "WHIZ" is a Wonderful day....."

Offline jeffsayers

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2010, 03:05:50 PM »
I encourage every member of the peanut gallery to chime in, it is after all only by a collaborative group effort that we will accomplish our misison. What is this mission, this seems to be part of the original question. Well, it is very simple and laid out in our by-laws, excerpt as follows:

Article 1
PURPOSE AND DISSOLUTION
1.1 Purpose.
To perform charitable activities within the meaning of Internal Revenue Code Section
501(c)(3) and Michigan Tax Code. Michigan Open Carry, Inc is specifically organized
for the purpose of educating the public and all law enforcement agencies on the right to
open carry a firearm and to promote its practice. To bring into closer cooperation any
and all persons interested in any and all aspects of the open carry of a firearm and to
promote and preserve our Second Amendment rights


This is defined further in our current mission statement, as well as activities to achieve our goal as follows:

The objectives of Michigan Open Carry are:

To educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.
To exercise a natural right to self defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.
To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.
To protect our right to self-defense.

Methods to accomplish objectives are:

To distribute information via email, mail, telephone and in person to local law enforcement agencies.
To have periodic and informal gatherings in public places throughout the state while open carrying our handguns.
To contact the media, conduct interviews, relate pertinent information on the internet, write articles and letters to the editors all on the legality of open carry.
To participate in larger public events, festivals, car shows, etc., and staff an information booth about open carry.
To stay informed of and act against infringing legislation.
To always be ambassadors of good will in regards to the safe and lawful carry of a firearm.


Recently I condensed all of these points into a very short and concise set of goals that will ultimately lead to the completion of our misison. You can read this letter here: http://www.michiganopencarry.org/node/37 There is no 'silver bullet' that will get the job done. Every bit that each person contributes helps, every bit brings us that much closer. It will be only through the presentation of a unified voice, singing in many different tones, that we will be victorious.

I encourage everyone to communicate with their regional coordinators, these folks are empowered to use the resources of this organization. Indeed, it is up to each and every one of us to be proactive, to work towards the finish line. The methods listed are ideas, use them, come up with your own, seek assistance from your organization if necessary... we are all in this together!
United we STAND!
I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline jeffsayers

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2010, 03:07:27 PM »
Nice ideas Wardog, pursue! Bring a proposal to the table for consideration! Thank you for your efforts!
United we STAND!
I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline DGerard

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2010, 08:14:58 PM »
Hello Cabman1...

Are your comments regarding MOC goals, our goals the real question/answer you are after? I suspect it to be more frustration at the lack of progress towards these goals...I can relate...I am and have been a member of a number of volunteer organizations and progress often comes in little pieces at a time...sometimes not at all...

When I became a member I basically excepted the goals laid out in our mission statement...I would not change MOC goals and/or mission statement...and they are my goals and will do what I can for the cause with the support of MOC...

And as a reply...You had emailed all MOC members regarding notifying us directly about events...I for one do not want notifications 'pushed' out to me and prefer to read them in our forum which I view almost everyday...
“Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Benjamin Franklin

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 12:15:24 AM »
Nice ideas Wardog, pursue! Bring a proposal to the table for consideration! Thank you for your efforts!

It seems odd to me Jeff that you would be tasking a non-member to do what our new "Media" guru should already be doing.

Not that I wouldn't welcome help from non-members. But shouldn't the person appointed to the position be doing his job?
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline TheElk

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 08:14:14 AM »
From my point of view, the OC movement started with OCDO and migrated into MOC and was initially about informing LEOs and municipalities to the legality of OC. For the most part, I think that has been accomplished. It seems that there are a few stragglers here and there. I think now, MOC should be focused on public awareness and events to build the membership base.

1. Inform LEO and Local Units of Government
2. Inform Public at Large
3. Build Membership Base (OC Clinics and such)
4. ???
5. (Non)Profit  :)

I thought for #2 and #3 that members sending MOC postcards to people in their community would help accomplish that.
I'm MarineSgt on OCDO and smalls on MGO. Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 08:49:37 AM »
Nice ideas Wardog, pursue! Bring a proposal to the table for consideration! Thank you for your efforts!

It seems odd to me Jeff that you would be tasking a non-member to do what our new "Media" guru should already be doing.

Not that I wouldn't welcome help from non-members. But shouldn't the person appointed to the position be doing his job?

IMOP Jeff is not tasking anyone but rather letting folks know that we will listen to any idea no matter whether the originator is an MOC member or not.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2010, 08:53:42 AM »
From my point of view, the OC movement started with OCDO and migrated into MOC and was initially about informing LEOs and municipalities to the legality of OC. For the most part, I think that has been accomplished. It seems that there are a few stragglers here and there. I think now, MOC should be focused on public awareness and events to build the membership base.

1. Inform LEO and Local Units of Government
2. Inform Public at Large
3. Build Membership Base (OC Clinics and such)
4. ???
5. (Non)Profit  :)

I thought for #2 and #3 that members sending MOC postcards to people in their community would help accomplish that.

I wish it were that simple! And we were done for the most part with LEO's and Communities... However there is much work to be done and we have identified where that work needs to be done.

I suggest emailing our media Director Jan Jay or jumping on our Teamspeak as we will be having skull sessions and training in how to accomplish those goals.

It would be rather complex to post here and Jan Jay can explain it better than I.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline wardog6t

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2010, 11:19:59 AM »
From my point of view, the OC movement started with OCDO and migrated into MOC and was initially about informing LEOs and municipalities to the legality of OC. For the most part, I think that has been accomplished. It seems that there are a few stragglers here and there. I think now, MOC should be focused on public awareness and events to build the membership base.

1. Inform LEO and Local Units of Government


This has always been a question of mine? Why would we want or need to Inform LEO's of the Law? I find it how to understand at times why civilians would have any interest in this aspect? If an LEO doesnt know the law, violates your rights, arrest's you. Most of everyone within the Michigan OC community/movement states that what comes next is a lawsuit. So at this point would'nt the LEO's be informed? From my experiance most LEO's know the Law but would rather operate under the color of there own laws. Which includes retired LEO's in which the color of law they personaly live by even after retiring. I totaly agree with informing the public in order curtail the MWG calls. I do not agree with wasting resources training LEO's in regards to there own states firearm laws. We already pay them with our tax dollars now were training them too.?
"Any day you don't hear a "POP" and "WHIZ" is a Wonderful day....."

Offline jeffsayers

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2010, 12:22:12 PM »

This has always been a question of mine? Why would we want or need to Inform LEO's of the Law? I find it how to understand at times why civilians would have any interest in this aspect? If an LEO doesnt know the law, violates your rights, arrest's you. Most of everyone within the Michigan OC community/movement states that what comes next is a lawsuit. So at this point would'nt the LEO's be informed? From my experiance most LEO's know the Law but would rather operate under the color of there own laws. Which includes retired LEO's in which the color of law they personaly live by even after retiring. I totaly agree with informing the public in order curtail the MWG calls. I do not agree with wasting resources training LEO's in regards to there own states firearm laws. We already pay them with our tax dollars now were training them too.?

I certainly agree that the state should have mandated training upon enactment of preemption. However, the fact is it did not, and training is still deficient in many agencies. The reason we need to have an interest in this is that many citizens are highly discouraged from exercising this right for fear of retaliation, up to and including false arrest. Certainly, there is a procedure to resolve such situations through the court system; however, that has its challenges also. For one, the victim may not wish to impose financial burden on their community. This may sound silly to some, but it can indeed be a real concern. Secondly, such a system takes cash. Sure, there is reimbursement of legal expenses if you are victorious, but what good does that do when the mortgage payment is due now?

Now, it is a given that our resources are limited, we have a staff of volunteers, therefore we must strive to get the most bang for our buck when we work. This is why Michigan Open Carry, Inc. is planning a campaign to work with MCOLES, by choreographing with a top-level authority, training will move downward into every agency without further attention from us.

You can read more about this strategy on our website at the President’s desk.
United we STAND!
I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline wardog6t

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2010, 03:37:18 PM »
Personaly I do not believe we as civilians have any business in thinking that MOC would be qualified to train any LEO's. I firmly believe that if a real presidence is set the state will set forth the proper training. I do not understand, as a nonprofit why MOC.INC would qualify itself as the official LEO training entity. As I stated in previous post.  MOC.INC stance is to file a law suit at any given opportunity in regards to open carry. It would seem more of a waste of resources training LEO rather then the general public. Regardless of what the law states or doesnt. I think most will agree that some agency's do not care nor do they wish to ackowledge OC is legal and our right. The state should be held accountable to train its officer not civilians. If the state doesnt feel there is a need to train its officers in regards to OC in any lawsuit the state should also be filed upon for its lack of support and training of its own officers. From an outsider looking in, why do we care if an LEO doesnt know the law. If in fact he violates the law and a lawsuit is filed and won. You can pretty much bet there will be mandated training.

Sorry if I may have hijacked this thread a bit. However I do not agree with this aspect of MOC's position and the training of LEO or LEA's for that matter.
On a final note. Several recent comments have made directly to me to the effect that OC'ers are making it more difficult to do there job's. That were making it difficult for the LEO's to make a difference between the good guys and bad. How many tax payer, Our tax dollars are wasted on OC calls. How many officers show up? How many people within that LEA are paid to deal with an OCer? Regardless if it is legal or not. Regardless if the agency knows oc is legal. Could the officer be utilizing there time in a much more important call? Its the people that make the calls. The people they do not no the law. People that do not know OC is legal. We can retrain every 911 operator in the state. The fact remains in most cases if an LEA is called and LEO will show...Now I havent even touched on the terrorism aspect of all this...
"Any day you don't hear a "POP" and "WHIZ" is a Wonderful day....."

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2010, 03:41:10 PM »
Wardog

We are Citizens the same as the LEO is a Citizen they are not above us nor are they somehow smarter than us. We are their employer so it would stand to reason that as their employer we would be involved in their training!
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline TaxWhat

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Re: Valued Michigan open Carry members
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2010, 03:42:17 PM »
From my point of view, the OC movement started with OCDO and migrated into MOC and was initially about informing LEOs and municipalities to the legality of OC. For the most part, I think that has been accomplished. It seems that there are a few stragglers here and there. I think now, MOC should be focused on public awareness and events to build the membership base.

1. Inform LEO and Local Units of Government


This has always been a question of mine? Why would we want or need to Inform LEO's of the Law? I find it how to understand at times why civilians would have any interest in this aspect? If an LEO doesnt know the law, violates your rights, arrest's you. Most of everyone within the Michigan OC community/movement states that what comes next is a lawsuit. So at this point would'nt the LEO's be informed? From my experiance most LEO's know the Law but would rather operate under the color of there own laws. Which includes retired LEO's in which the color of law they personaly live by even after retiring. I totaly agree with informing the public in order curtail the MWG calls. I do not agree with wasting resources training LEO's in regards to there own states firearm laws. We already pay them with our tax dollars now were training them too.?
       John you are Correct.Having said that example : City of Woodhaven-$09o,ooo per year to be member of Michigan Municical League [MMl]- Tax payer money Question is the money well spent and/or wasted on Bad info ?Same for MICOLES !Tax Money !Burning Hot dogs do not do it .Make them do their JOB.