Valued Michigan open Carry members

[wardog6t]

Wardog

We are Citizens the same as the LEO is a Citizen they are not above us nor are they somehow smarter than us. We are their employer so it would stand to reason that as their employer we would be involved in their training!

That is not my point in regards to civilian. My point is to the effect what qualifications does MOC.INC have to train anyone? What credentials? What training? What law school did anyone within MOC.INC attend to make that person an official trainer of OC? What and why does MOC.INC feel they are qualified to attempt to enlighten anyone especially LEO's. Sure MOC has a couple "RETIRED" LEO's and? We are not there employer, we are the silent partner that rights the checks.... PERIOD. We vote for elected officials to handle the every task of the business. Hence the chief of police. If these people are not getting the job done why is it are problem or responability to train them so they do not get sued?

[mosnar87]

Wardog

We are Citizens the same as the LEO is a Citizen they are not above us nor are they somehow smarter than us. We are their employer so it would stand to reason that as their employer we would be involved in their training!

That is not my point in regards to civilian. My point is to the effect what qualifications does MOC.INC have to train anyone? What credentials? What training? What law school did anyone within MOC.INC attend to make that person an official trainer of OC? What and why does MOC.INC feel they are qualified to attempt to enlighten anyone especially LEO's. Sure MOC has a couple "RETIRED" LEO's and? We are not there employer, we are the silent partner that rights the checks.... PERIOD. We vote for elected officials to handle the every task of the business. Hence the chief of police. If these people are not getting the job done why is it are problem or responability to train them so they WE do not get sued?

My words in red above ^

The problem I have with simply suing every time we have an encounter, rather than trying to prevent the encounter through training, is the fact that We The People end up paying for the settlement. IMOP suing a local unit of government will never have the same direct effect that suing a private entity has, therefore we should look at other options first.

[jeffsayers]

First and foremost, I will say that it is not the opinion of the board of directors that we should be filing lawsuits whenever there is a chance. Granted, sometimes it is necessary, especially when someone is physically abused on top of having their rights violated. But we do not currently, and will never as long as level headed people run this organizaiton, simply 'look' for a chance to take anyone to court.

So, as to training. You are correct, we are not certified to provide law training in any way shape or form as of right now. However, we certainly have the ability, and already have, taken the time and resources to compile information in a short easy to read format that clearly spells out the state law. Should we have to do this, resoundingly... NO. Do we want to do this... YES. For all the reasons mentioned previously.

Please don't be mislead, we are not neglecting our responsibility to educate the public either. Clearly this is a very important key to our long-term success. For just as we have the right to petition for redress of grievances, so does Suzy Q. Lefty. Our laws are based on the will of the majority, or so they are supposed to be, hence this is the only way to effectively promote and safeguard our 2A rights.

[TheElk]

Wardog

We are Citizens the same as the LEO is a Citizen they are not above us nor are they somehow smarter than us. We are their employer so it would stand to reason that as their employer we would be involved in their training!

That is not my point in regards to civilian. My point is to the effect what qualifications does MOC.INC have to train anyone? What credentials? What training? What law school did anyone within MOC.INC attend to make that person an official trainer of OC? What and why does MOC.INC feel they are qualified to attempt to enlighten anyone especially LEO's. Sure MOC has a couple "RETIRED" LEO's and? We are not there employer, we are the silent partner that rights the checks.... PERIOD. We vote for elected officials to handle the every task of the business. Hence the chief of police. If these people are not getting the job done why is it are problem or responability to train them so they do not get sued?

Who else in Michigan would train LEOs on OC in Michigan? Part of the problem is that a person should not have to be a lawyer to understand the law. It then defeats the purpose and is tyrannical.

[eastmeyers]

1. Inform LEO and Local Units of Government
2. Inform Public at Large
3. Build Membership Base (OC Clinics and such)
4.
5. (Non)Profit 

I thought for #2 and #3 that members sending MOC postcards to people in their community would help accomplish that.

I think the post card idea is priceless, how about at all picnics we put out  a jar that says something like, "it only costs twenty cents to mail a post card".  See how much we can raise.
God Bless

[eastmeyers]

Personaly I do not believe we as civilians have any business in thinking that MOC would be qualified to train any LEO's. I firmly believe that if a real presidence is set the state will set forth the proper training. I do not understand, as a nonprofit why MOC.INC would qualify itself as the official LEO training entity. As I stated in previous post.  MOC.INC stance is to file a law suit at any given opportunity in regards to open carry. It would seem more of a waste of resources training LEO rather then the general public. Regardless of what the law states or doesnt. I think most will agree that some agency's do not care nor do they wish to ackowledge OC is legal and our right. The state should be held accountable to train its officer not civilians. If the state doesnt feel there is a need to train its officers in regards to OC in any lawsuit the state should also be filed upon for its lack of support and training of its own officers. From an outsider looking in, why do we care if an LEO doesnt know the law. If in fact he violates the law and a lawsuit is filed and won. You can pretty much bet there will be mandated training.

Sorry if I may have hijacked this thread a bit. However I do not agree with this aspect of MOC's position and the training of LEO or LEA's for that matter.
On a final note. Several recent comments have made directly to me to the effect that OC'ers are making it more difficult to do there job's. That were making it difficult for the LEO's to make a difference between the good guys and bad. How many tax payer, Our tax dollars are wasted on OC calls. How many officers show up? How many people within that LEA are paid to deal with an OCer? Regardless if it is legal or not. Regardless if the agency knows oc is legal. Could the officer be utilizing there time in a much more important call? Its the people that make the calls. The people they do not no the law. People that do not know OC is legal. We can retrain every 911 operator in the state. The fact remains in most cases if an LEA is called and LEO will show...Now I havent even touched on the terrorism aspect of all this...

From my point of view the reason why we teach the LEOs is simple.  How are you going to inform the public, and expect more than a few people to OC if they think they will be illegaly arrested?  Most people to not have the money to hire an attorney, and most attorneys will not sue police departments.  Only lawyers that feel as strongly as we do will even think about taking the case, and that would only be after a large retainer.

God Bless

[wardog6t]

So, as to training. You are correct, we are not certified to provide law training in any way shape or form as of right now. However, we certainly have the ability, and already have, taken the time and resources to compile information in a short easy to read format that clearly spells out the state law. Should we have to do this, resoundingly... NO. Do we want to do this... YES. For all the reasons mentioned previously.

Which is great! Is there any way as a nonprofit provide this training for a fee to LEA's that require for said training?

[CV67PAT]

Maybe MOC could have the MSP disseminate information that says it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public.

It could be call it something like "Michigan State Police Legal Updates".

And the section heading could be named "Back to Basics" with a sub-section called "Firearms-related frequently raised issues".

I would think that if the Michigan State Police did this, then every single agency would be put on notice by a recognized authority. Something which MOC is not.

How's that sound?

Insofar as suing goes, it is not necessary. But what is necessary is for each and every individual that has a grievance to address it within the system. The attorney general is the office that investigates color of law violations. And they will, if there is a bone fide grievance. To do nothing is the same as validating unlawful actions.

[wardog6t]

OK OK maybe using MOC.INC in general in regards to filing a lawsuit was a bad example. So I will just say that Most of all members of OCDO and MOC would promote filing a lawsuit. MOC.INC to my knowledge as a whole has indeed never advocated sueing anyone.

[ghostrider]

Valued Michigan open Carry members,

Are we working for a common goal OR ........?WHAT is your Goal? What should MOC inc Goal be......?  We need to start working a a whole team instead of a splinter groups.  We need a Awareness  drive. We need at least 500 members working on the same goal soon. Especially if we want to taken seriously!!!! Please think about Victory . The world reads what You post and Judges Us by Your statements.



Sincerely,
Gordon Cannon
Soon to be extinct pro Gun MemberFeel free to email me gcannon@miopencarry.org

I sometimes wonder myself. We appear to have various splinters spread all over the place, going in all different directions. We are doing a great job of training the LE community that there is little incentive for them to stop harassing us, and they appear to be making a sport out of it. Sure, they wave and make nice when we throw a picnic, only to later harass individuals because they know they will get away with it.

We let anyone who feels so inclined to do so use our name, further making it insignificant, and allowing the reputation to take whatever shape the next bad name gives it. We have titled members and officers acting on their own, instead of holding them to uniform standards of accountability and conduct.

We appear to be more interested in rattling sabers at local jurisdictions, rather than uniting to focus on the actual sources of the problem.

[army74]

Just for youur information MSP will not get involved they will call and tell them its ok to Open Carry a firearm visibly to the public in a holster. But thats it they are not a supervisory or a unit that can tell another police dept what to do.

[jeffsayers]

Which is great! Is there any way as a nonprofit provide this training for a fee to LEA's that require for said training?

Yes, a non-profit can charge a fee for services. It is all a matter of what activities you do and what you do with your funds that makes and keeps an entity in the non-profit status.

[glock2go]

Could somebody please tell me how I cam PM another member when needed ?  Also who is the representitive for the North \West region, as I see no post in that category?  thank for your help in advance.

[CV67PAT]

Could somebody please tell me how I cam PM another member when needed ?  Also who is the representitive for the North \West region, as I see no post in that category?  thank for your help in advance.

At the top of the page click on the tab labeled "My Messages".

Then on the left side of the page that opens is a link labeled "New Message" that opens an message form.

[autosurgeon]

Currently only paying MOC members can use the PM system.

Also as of now there is not yet a NW coordinator.

[anetsprungen]

Several individual's have raised an issue with the concept of "training" law enforcement.

Please keep in mind there are many forms of training and most do not require any kind of license or certification.  Any subject matter expert, whether through "training", practical experience or both may be a qualified instructor or a self-proclaimed expert.  How many college level instructors are actually qualified and certified to "teach"?  What does it actually take to be a trainer?

I believe the MOC, Inc. concept of training law enforcement and the communities at large is a misnomer.  We try to be subject matter experts, instructors, if you will, and would not presume to be experienced, certified trainers in law enforcement, only about a specific point of law that it appears most police and law enforcement academies choose to omit, obfuscate or outright lie about.  Certainly we have a few who have all the qualifications, but as Jeff said, we are a group of volunteers who are willing to share what we have learned to the advancement of others.

But it is a task that needs repeating.  While we keep hearing about cut-backs, that does not mean there is zero growth in law enforcement personnel.  And many of the vacancies are filled by non-residents; people unfamiliar with our laws who probably will not receive more than their basic training until their department has enough new people to justify scheduling them.

Either we are in this for the long haul, e.g. ten to twenty years, or we are not.  Education is a continuous process.  You don't do it once and it is done because the people, rules and technologies keep changing.  When I became a member, I made a conscious promise to do whatever I could to support the cause and mission of this group for as long as I am able.

But to change topic for a moment and get back to the OP's original message, the forum has many members that have chosen not to become a dues paying member of MOC, Inc.  Some of them are vocal against the MOC leadership and the membership has no way of telling who they are, but as a Global Moderator, I do.  There is a group working on a code of conduct that I believe we will be able to enforce on this forum to restrict or ban the malcontents who do not wish to join us but remain rabble rousers. 

I will actively petition the board to begin banning such posters who foment dissension and ill will just to sow discord.  I am an advocate of terminating someone's access first and letting them petition to have it reinstated.  And I have the skillset to analyze their collection of posts and draw that conclusion.  Everybody has an opinion and I am conscious of their right to express it, but within limits.  And people pushed that limit on this thread.

Respect of others seems to be waning in recent years, but our membership deserves respect and good civil discourse.  I expect most everybody here has heard the old expression, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."  Even the lurkers have a reasonable expectation of good manners.


Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

[CV67PAT]

What about those that has paid for access? Will those voices of dissent be silenced also?

[ghostrider]

What about those that has paid for access? Will those voices of dissent be silenced also?

What he said.

Are we to take it that there will be no dissenting opinions are allowed?

[CV67PAT]

And I have the skillset to analyze their collection of posts and draw that conclusion.  Everybody has an opinion and I am conscious of their right to express it, but within limits.  And people pushed that limit on this thread.

I see no post whatsoever where any limit has been pushed on this thread. Cite it.

I can see exactly where this is going, especially with someone like you with your vast skill set.

Anybody want my Charter Membership?

[anetsprungen]

What about those that has paid for access? Will those voices of dissent be silenced also?

Read the Forum Rules <http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php?topic=70.0>.  The short answer is: Yes.  Nobody's post is excepted.  But forum members who are not MOC, Inc. members have fewer rights and recourse.  But as you know, anybody can appeal to the board.


Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.