Valued Michigan open Carry members

[CV67PAT]

What about those that has paid for access? Will those voices of dissent be silenced also?

What he said.

Are we to take it that there will be no dissenting opinions are allowed?

That's what it looks like.

Still would like to see the cite of where the limits were pushed in this thread.

Or, is it pushing the limits by just merely asking?

[FatboyCykes]

This is all just hypothetical at this point yes?  Personally, I can't imagine a point/time on this board where a dissenting opinion is shut out merely for being that, a dissenting opinion.  It has me concerned that this is being bandied about with what appears to be disregard to the sensitive nature of the topic at hand.

I am optimistically assuming that Roy is giving an example of the worst case scenario where it is much more than dissent going on.  Trolling, taunting, personal attacking and all around ridiculous forum behavior.  Rather than how he/MOC is going to deal with someone who has well reasoned, well thought out, logical questions/issues.  At the end of the day as long as we can all walk away agreeing to disagree, I see no need for such heavy-handedness that is being alluded to.

If, however I am wrong, I can see many-a-folk spending a lot less time and money with MOC.

[anetsprungen]

What he said.

Are we to take it that there will be no dissenting opinions are allowed?

Not at all, as long as you are courteous and respectful of the other person's opinion.  Dissenting opinions are a good thing.  But they can be expressed using hurtful, slandering, damning terms that belittle, ridicule and accuse another person.  That is NOT acceptable.  It is possible to respect someone and use positive words while still disagreeing with them.  But too many people have been practicing negativism in a harmful way.  In reading most of the postings I have read, when this happens, they are usually ignored, but sometimes the perpetrator gets a rise from somebody and they start 'flaming' each other.  This happens all to often on the OCDO forum.

That kind of conduct is clearly a violation of our Forum Rules.


Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

[CV67PAT]

Everybody has an opinion and I am conscious of their right to express it, but within limits.  And people pushed that limit on this thread.

Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

I ask the question again... where?

All I'm beginning to see here is a lot of dancing on the head of a pin waving a huge ban-hammer.

[anetsprungen]

And I have the skillset to analyze their collection of posts and draw that conclusion.  Everybody has an opinion and I am conscious of their right to express it, but within limits.  And people pushed that limit on this thread.

I see no post whatsoever where any limit has been pushed on this thread. Cite it.

The highlighted text in my quote is a personal observation, and most definitely, a personal opinion.  However, citing it would identify the individual.  That, I will not do.  Since their post is still present in this thread, it appears you saw nothing wrong with it.

I can see exactly where this is going, especially with someone like you with your vast skill set.

I don't think you do, but only time will tell.  However, you used an interesting choice of words in saying "vast skill set".  I never alluded to such, so I wonder how you came to ascribe such to me.  I don't consider thirteen years as "vast" but I do have a lot of experience in such matters.

Anybody want my Charter Membership?

I don't think the By-Laws will permit it, but I can certainly look it up for you if you wish.  As I said before, everybody is entitled to express their opinion, just be respectful of others' differing opinions and follow the Forum Rules in your postings.


Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

[anetsprungen]

This is all just hypothetical at this point yes?  Personally, I can't imagine a point/time on this board where a dissenting opinion is shut out merely for being that, a dissenting opinion.  It has me concerned that this is being bandied about with what appears to be disregard to the sensitive nature of the topic at hand.

I am optimistically assuming that Roy is giving an example of the worst case scenario where it is much more than dissent going on.  Trolling, taunting, personal attacking and all around ridiculous forum behavior.  Rather than how he/MOC is going to deal with someone who has well reasoned, well thought out, logical questions/issues.  At the end of the day as long as we can all walk away agreeing to disagree, I see no need for such heavy-handedness that is being alluded to.

If, however I am wrong, I can see many-a-folk spending a lot less time and money with MOC.

Quite right on all counts.  The Forum Rules are quite explicit about bad behavior.  Sometimes, I think the forum members just need a refresher that we do have rules, penalties and a due process, up to and including banning a forum member for egregious behavior.  And, that there is a board that can accept or deny any petition I might make.  I have been overruled before and I expect to be again.  That is the nature of being an administrator.

I trust we can drop this line and I apologize for hijacking the thread from the OP.


Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

[CV67PAT]

And I have the skillset to analyze their collection of posts and draw that conclusion.  Everybody has an opinion and I am conscious of their right to express it, but within limits.  And people pushed that limit on this thread.

I see no post whatsoever where any limit has been pushed on this thread. Cite it.

The highlighted text in my quote is a personal observation, and most definitely, a personal opinion.  However, citing it would identify the individual.  That, I will not do.  Since their post is still present in this thread, it appears you saw nothing wrong with it.

I can see exactly where this is going, especially with someone like you with your vast skill set.

I don't think you do, but only time will tell.  However, you used an interesting choice of words in saying "vast skill set".  I never alluded to such, so I wonder how you came to ascribe such to me.  I don't consider thirteen years as "vast" but I do have a lot of experience in such matters.

Anybody want my Charter Membership?

I don't think the By-Laws will permit it, but I can certainly look it up for you if you wish.  As I said before, everybody is entitled to express their opinion, just be respectful of others' differing opinions and follow the Forum Rules in your postings.


Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

I did add the "vast" part because you were so pointed in referencing your "skillset to analyze". You certainly wouldn't have disseminated that information if your skillset was only half vast.

[FatboyCykes]

I think he was referring to the tools available to him as a Admin, rather than his own personal skillz.  I don't want to put words into his mouth so I'll let him clarify, but that was my interpretation.

[wardog6t]

This should tell you enough in regards to this forum and its Mod's.

Roy Sprunger
Global Moderator & Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

[wardog6t]

Quite right on all counts.  The Forum Rules are quite explicit about bad behavior.  Sometimes, I think the forum members just need a refresher that we do have rules, penalties and a due process, up to and including banning a forum member for egregious behavior.  And, that there is a board that can accept or deny any petition I might make.  I have been overruled before and I expect to be again.  That is the nature of being an administrator.

I trust we can drop this line and I apologize for hijacking the thread from the OP.
[/quote]

Blah blah blah everyone knows there is really no banning within any forum. Regardless of email, username or IP ban. Its pretty simple to come back so lets not let the  power tripping, self proclaimed Super moderators and administrators of this forum get in the way of this reality. For those that don't understand why some of us return to a forum with almost the same user name is to make that point and make it easier for the admins to re ban.  My one in only question to the ban hammer advocates would be how many power hungry admin's and mods does this forum really need? There's like 200 people in this forum. Yet there are like 8-10 mods and admin? CERT , RED CROSS, RACES , ARES , are all looking for volunteers.  Dependent on your experience you may even be able to take a power trip position.

[autosurgeon]

If you don't like it here Wardog there are other options... no one is forcing you to stay and post here... or even read here... 

However please don't take this to mean I think you should leave. I really don't care one way or the other.

As long as people behave like adults I don't have to use my moderator tools. And I like it that way truth be told.

[wardog6t]

If you don't like it here Wardog there are other options... no one is forcing you to stay and post here... or even read here... 

However please don't take this to mean I think you should leave. I really don't care one way or the other.

As long as people behave like adults I don't have to use my moderator tools. And I like it that way truth be told.

Its not a matter of liking it here or there. Personally I could care less what you think... This is a public forum not some private social event. My only issue here is people like you with better then other attitudes. Its people like you that take forum post's to personal and cant differentiate between real life and the internet. Speaking of real life I don't recall seeing you at any events I have attended. The events I have attended people have come up and shook my hand knowing full well of who I am. People have issue's with me yet can't , won't , or simply don't confont me on the issue's. As I have stated I support MOC and OC in some format or another. As with you and others I may not agree with some of what goes on within the OC community but do support and advocate OC in most formats.


Not to mention the countless hours myself and others have dedicated to other various wanna be sites. Including the infamous UFO.

[wardog6t]

To continue I really appreciate the fact of how entrenched most members our for the support of OC. That being said it doesnt really make sense to sensor anything or anyone. It would seem whenever there is a negative subject title this forum does not wish to acknowledge the fact. Its kind of loopy you support the 2nd amendment and the right to carry and OC. Yet in the same instances you do not believe in freedom of speech within a public forum. IE sensorship , banning , banning of even paying members at that. Why because you dont like what they say...because its over the top? Or maybe its because it makes sense and common sense is to much like the truth?

[wardog6t]

As long as people behave like adults I don't have to use my moderator tools. And I like it that way truth be told.

As a moderator and having to use "YOUR" tools. I wasnt aware this was "YOUR" forum. This is what you consider being an adult and a adminstrator of such a forum. This is the type of person MOC wishes to represent in its official public capacity. Publish outlashing at the general public?

[autosurgeon]

As long as people behave like adults I don't have to use my moderator tools. And I like it that way truth be told.

As a moderator and having to use "YOUR" tools. I wasnt aware this was "YOUR" forum. This is what you consider being an adult and a adminstrator of such a forum. This is the type of person MOC wishes to represent in its official public capacity. Publish outlashing at the general public?

Nope it's not my forum it's MOC's forum. However the tools are mine until such time as the admin or board feel I am not using them correctly.

I am curious what I have done or said to you that makes you feel I lash out at the general public? I have only had to moderate for failure to follow forum rules 2 times since this forum has been up and running. A few other times I have moved threads to the correct sub forum.

I am a pretty laid back fellow most of the time.. have to be as a teacher. That said I do take the forum rules I am tasked with enforcing seriously. I also do not have the last say on any moderation I initiate. The offending thread or post is NOT deleted but rather moved to a secure location within the forum where the board and admin can decide what to do with it. If they decide I or any other moderator was wrong they can move it back or edit it thus removing the offending part and move it back.

Finally you bring up freedom of speech. 1A. And while I support freedom of speech we have rules on here about personal attacks and promotion of unlawful activities... when those rules get broken we are required by board rules to take action. These types of posts serve no valid purpose other than to incite trouble and make us look bad to the newcomers and lurkers.

[wardog6t]

Obvisouly you don't understand your own post. First and foremost you do not know me. Nor have we ever met. It would seem that MOC.INC is taking the same bureaucratic response as our government IMO. I have made no personal attacks to anyone less then those that have made attacks towards me in this forum or other wise. I am not nor have never made any type of personal threat to anyone within the OC community or anyone period. I have not been threatened in any way in via this forum. That being said. I will not be seeking legal action in the future against those involved in any personal threats to anyone's family members.

These our the type of people MOC.INC to affiliate itself with. This is my main issue with MOC.INC. Well I have several realy but I won't get into the details in a public forum. MOC.INC wishes to curtail the truth and knowledge of its past, fine. I can't disagree. However stuffing facts of less then stellar activities, under the rug and expecting those that know the truth to be silent is ludicris.

MOC.INC has indeed affiliated itself with questionable people. If MOC.INC wishes to continue this course of recklesness MOC.INC as a company should and will be held accountable in a public format. As a citizen of Michigan it is not only my right but duty to voice both the good and the bad in regards to MOC.INC and its current regime. If you and others have issue's with these facts. Again not my problem or concern and personaly could care less.
MOC.INC has deemed itself the official OC representative in both the civilian and LEA worlds. MOC.INC intends to be the official advocate of OC here in Michigan. Great, I appluad all who are involved. As I have stated before MOC.INC has no formal training other then a few retired LEO's whom probably retired close to 20 years ago.

[wardog6t]

Lets be honest shall we... MOC.INC has been manupulated by more people then our own government since its inception. MOC.INC continues to drive the boat with blinders on. Lets count how many boards members MOC has had in the last year? MOC.INC hasnt been on the same page including its own forum since day one. To be perfectly honest Myself and handful of others were the driving force behind this forum. Regardless in the end how it happened and who installed it. While the goals and leadership may have improved the history remains. IMO MOC.INC hasnt learned from its history and continues to implement bad apples into the frey. Like yourself, in which you do not see your personal outlashing of a citizen of Michigan. I really hope that MOC.INC can get it together however as I and others have already seen. Power trippin , better then others , are not good for MOC.INC. Those that have the signature lines of GLOBAL MODERATOR, ADMINSTRATOR, BAN HAMMER! Are far more likely to do more harm them good.

[JoeCar]

nice haircut! What is an infidel? Is that lower writing Italian? Just curious...

[wardog6t]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawi_script

[FatboyCykes]

It appears you fancy yourself some sort of prophet, luckily most of us can see you for what you really are.  The only one lashing out is you sir.  You want to be coddled?  AS being blunt and bold too much for your delicate feelings?  Yeesh man.

Feel free to keep all your drama @ http://michigan2a.net/

Thanks!