Author Topic: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal  (Read 18400 times)

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Offline TheQ

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Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« on: November 21, 2013, 10:04:39 AM »
The order says it all.  CADL got denied leave to appeal.  They can still file a motion to reconsider.  If they do (probably won't), the Court will likely deny it again.  This matter (due to how long it would take) was no doubt considered thoroughly by the Court.

Quote
On order of the Court, the motions for leave to file brief amicus curiae are GRANTED. The application for leave to appeal the October 25, 2012 judgment of the Court of Appeals is considered, and it is DENIED, because we are not persuaded that the questions presented should be reviewed by this Court.

CAVANAGH, J., would grant leave to appeal.

Don't understand the legalese?  We won.

Of note: we picked up one Democrat: Bridget Mary McCormack

http://publicdocs.courts.mi.gov:81/sct/public/orders/20131120_s146596_81_146596_2013-11-20_or.pdf
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Offline Veeper

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 10:19:35 AM »
Big sigh of relief and congratulations to all involved.  Thanks for all you do!

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 10:51:50 AM »
Big win!!

Look out quasi-municipal authorities!

Offline Jeff

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 11:05:56 AM »
Sweet, good work everybody.  Well really it was all me, but I'm humble.  Ok I lied I didn't do anything.


Thanks for the good news.

Offline part deux

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2013, 11:33:10 AM »
AWESOME News!

Congrats to the leadership and law team involved with this HUGE win

Offline MI_XD

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2013, 12:52:18 PM »
Wooo Hooo!  Chalk one up for the Good Guys!

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Offline FASBOLD

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2013, 12:52:40 PM »
Persistence pays off!

Good work!
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Offline detroit_fan

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 01:39:41 PM »
Fantastic news! The leadership of MOC was great during this case, and I would personally like to thank all of you who donated, volunteered your time, and all the people who helped work the case to make sure we prevailed.

Offline hevymetal

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 01:52:02 PM »
Congratulations!!!

Thank you to all who were involved in this matter :)

Offline TucTom

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 02:19:45 PM »
Thank you everyone. (I missed the Announcement section earlier)  :-[

Offline sircapsalot

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 02:36:04 PM »
Woohoo! Score one for liberty!

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 03:36:06 PM »
AWESOME News!

Congrats to the leadership and law team involved with this HUGE win

I agree and a  giant WooHoo!!

Offline Jeff

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 04:20:01 PM »
I have no idea what's going on.

wana-geh-hi?

Offline gryphon

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 05:02:05 PM »


Oh, and...



Should pour some on the ground for the $100,000 of taxpayers' money that CADL killed.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2013, 05:12:24 PM »
If it was 6-1, I wonder why it took ten months for this?

Also, who is CAVANAGH, J?  Michael F. Cavanagh?

Offline linux203

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2013, 05:31:56 PM »
Also, who is CAVANAGH, J?  Michael F. Cavanagh?

J and M are next to each other on a QWERTY keyboard.  I say typo.
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2013, 09:05:37 PM »
Makes sense.  Smart, which is why you chose Linux over Windoze.  :P

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2013, 09:42:32 PM »
This is significant. Very significant. The win is actually in the Court of Appeals opinion. The use of wording contained therein, such as "occupies the whole field" completely and the fact that the description of a "local unit of government" was broaden beyond the statute's narrow definition means that anything representing a form of government is strictly prohibited from enacting any "policies" restricting firearm possession.

I know a community college that will soon be getting an education.
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Offline bigt8261

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2013, 10:21:52 PM »
This is significant. Very significant. The win is actually in the Court of Appeals opinion. The use of wording contained therein, such as "occupies the whole field" completely and the fact that the description of a "local unit of government" was broaden beyond the statute's narrow definition means that anything representing a form of government is strictly prohibited from enacting any "policies" restricting firearm possession

Exactly. We are lucky that not only did the MSC rule on our side, they also left the MCOA opinion alone. Really couldn't have asked for much more.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:02:55 AM by bigt8261 »

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 02:58:58 AM »
Thanks to all who worked so hard to keep MI tyrants at bay. +1

Judge "Rosie" and the other Lansing a$$hats behind this (Mayor Virg B), need to be rode out of town on a rail, IMHO. :)
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Offline jgillmanjr

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 06:20:55 AM »
J and M are next to each other on a QWERTY keyboard.  I say typo.

Actually, although you are still quite smart for using Linux (Debian > * b***hes), it is not actually a typo.

You'll see this in other opinions as well (all that I've looked at, in fact) - both supreme court and COA.

I think the J just refers to the fact they are a justice or judge. I'm not 100% sure, but this is the only thing I can think of. You'll also see P.J. (I'm guessing Primary Justice/Judge) and JJ (probably just indicative of a 'regular' Justice/Judge).

So for example, if you look at the Partial Concurrence/Dissent (http://publicdocs.courts.mi.gov:81/opinions/final/coa/20121025_c304582(65)_rptr_140o-304582-final.pdf) for the COA case, you'll see GLEICHER, P.J. even though the first name and middle initital are Elizabeth L.

Like I said, I'm not 100% what the J stands for, but I'm 99.999999999999999999999% that it's not a typo.
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Offline sircapsalot

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 10:17:38 AM »
Thank you everyone. (I missed the Announcement section earlier)  :-[

did you make a post on it too? I did too and immediately saw it in announcements  ::)

Offline part deux

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 11:46:16 AM »
So for example, if you look at the Partial Concurrence/Dissent (http://publicdocs.courts.mi.gov:81/opinions/final/coa/20121025_c304582(65)_rptr_140o-304582-final.pdf) for the COA case, you'll see GLEICHER, P.J. even though the first name and middle initital are Elizabeth L.
Link fails :(

Offline gryphon

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 12:51:11 PM »
Link fails :(

Someone included the closing parenthesis in the URL. 

Just delete it, part deux.

Offline part deux

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2013, 11:01:45 PM »
DOH, normally I catch stuff like that :(

thank you!

Offline woodtic31

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 10:53:48 AM »
Michigan is now a better place to live!
 
Onward to Constitutional Carry!!!!

Big THANKS to those that put forth the effort to preserve our RIGHT to Open Carry!!
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Offline drtodd

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Re: Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2013, 03:04:33 PM »
This is significant. Very significant. The win is actually in the Court of Appeals opinion. The use of wording contained therein, such as "occupies the whole field" completely and the fact that the description of a "local unit of government" was broaden beyond the statute's narrow definition means that anything representing a form of government is strictly prohibited from enacting any "policies" restricting firearm possession.
I know a community college that will soon be getting an education.

So who is going to OC at a Lions game? Can the NFL ban pistols from a place owned by an "Authority"? Hmm.
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2013, 06:39:43 PM »
I don't go to lions games. Why not try it out yourself. I already have a venue that I am working on.
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Offline TheQ

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Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2013, 07:09:23 PM »

So who is going to OC at a Lions game? Can the NFL ban pistols from a place owned by an "Authority"? Hmm.

Pro-2A lawyers I have spoke to including:

Jim Makowski
Dean Greenblatt
Terry Johnson

All of the opinion that an excellent case would be made, probably a victorious one (for them, not us), by a litigant that was renting or leasing a property that was owned by an authority or other public entity.
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Offline drtodd

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Re: Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2013, 07:16:58 PM »
I don't go to lions games. Why not try it out yourself. I already have a venue that I am working on.

I wasn't really referring to you specifically... so it's open to anyone who likes football. I don't like football nor do I go to venues with large crowds: malls on weekends, Black Friday shopping, etc.

I OC the rare times I go to crowded places that are also PFZs: no one said anything to me at the Van Andel Arena to watch an Ozzie concert. I even had to empty my pockets and have them pat me down. Pistol in holster was there, security didn't even ask me about it. There's nowhere I'd really care to go that I haven't already carried OC
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2013, 08:43:14 PM »
I wasn't really referring to you specifically... so it's open to anyone who likes football. I don't like football nor do I go to venues with large crowds: malls on weekends, Black Friday shopping, etc.

I OC the rare times I go to crowded places that are also PFZs: no one said anything to me at the Van Andel Arena to watch an Ozzie concert. I even had to empty my pockets and have them pat me down. Pistol in holster was there, security didn't even ask me about it. There's nowhere I'd really care to go that I haven't already carried OC

I thought that since you quoted my post you were directing you remark towards me.
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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2013, 08:49:08 PM »
Pro-2A lawyers I have spoke to including:

Jim Makowski
Dean Greenblatt
Terry Johnson

All of the opinion that an excellent case would be made, probably a victorious one (for them, not us), by a litigant that was renting or leasing a property that was owned by an authority or other public entity.
How then did A,B, & E become required to alter their policy? Private enterprise on local unit of government property.

So can the reverse be possible too then. An authority renting/leasing private property could prohibit firearms because the landlord does?
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2013, 11:10:51 PM »
no one said anything to me at the Van Andel Arena to watch an Ozzie concert. I even had to empty my pockets and have them pat me down. Pistol in holster was there, security didn't even ask me about it.

You OCed to a concert and that was okay, but you still had to empty your pockets?  What the heck were they looking for in people's pockets that were against their rules?

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2013, 11:32:12 PM »
You OCed to a concert and that was okay, but you still had to empty your pockets?  What the heck were they looking for in people's pockets that were against their rules?
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Offline TheQ

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Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2013, 11:44:05 PM »

How then did A,B, & E become required to alter their policy? Private enterprise on local unit of government property.

So can the reverse be possible too then. An authority renting/leasing private property could prohibit firearms because the landlord does?

ABE changed their policy because we pressured them in the press -- no litigation.
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Offline drtodd

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Re: Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2013, 06:50:48 AM »
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline METL

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2013, 12:14:40 PM »
Pro-2A lawyers I have spoke to including:

Jim Makowski
Dean Greenblatt
Terry Johnson

All of the opinion that an excellent case would be made, probably a victorious one (for them, not us), by a litigant that was renting or leasing a property that was owned by an authority or other public entity.


So what you're saying is that if the facilities are leased/rented, then the rules change?   City owned property, leased to whom ever, then can have rules in violation of pre-emption?

Offline TheQ

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2013, 12:20:09 PM »

So what you're saying is that if the facilities are leased/rented, then the rules change?   City owned property, leased to whom ever, then can have rules in violation of pre-emption?

Provided the leasing entity is the one that made the rule, yes -- that is the opinion of those 3 lawyers.
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Offline part deux

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2013, 12:55:39 PM »
Does AB&E "lease" the city streets?  Trying to recall the Belleville Strawberry Festival, and how they close mainstreet for a weekend every June.  IRC, it wasn't a lease, but an agreement they could use the street, and money was provided to cover police dept overtime.

Can city streets be leased?

Offline TheQ

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »
Does AB&E "lease" the city streets?  Trying to recall the Belleville Strawberry Festival, and how they close mainstreet for a weekend every June.  IRC, it wasn't a lease, but an agreement they could use the street, and money was provided to cover police dept overtime.

Can city streets be leased?

Great questions for a lawyer.

If special/exclusive use privileges were granted and money changed hands, I'd say it's a lease.
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Offline linux203

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2013, 06:55:35 PM »
Same questioning would apply to the Mason Gun Show that is held at the Ingham County Fairgrounds.

Very interesting....
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Offline Smashfacekrav

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Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2013, 11:42:57 AM »
Help me on this one. What exactly does this do for OC that we already don't have?   Please forgive my lack of comprehension on this thread.  Thanks.


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Offline bigt8261

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2013, 11:45:50 AM »
It doesn't necessarily do anything for OC specifically, but it does greatly benefit carry in general.

In summary, Michigan's preemption extends beyond those places specifically enumerated in MCL 123.1101, to all municipal authorities, as the legislature sought to occupy the field and create one set of rules for firearm possession.

Offline Divegeek

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2013, 12:18:13 PM »
Help me on this one. What exactly does this do for OC that we already don't have?   Please forgive my lack of comprehension on this thread.  Thanks.

How about this hypothetical scenario. If we had lost, the city of Ferndale, who has tried in the past to ban guns from city hall and lost, could create a "governmental building authority" then sell city hall to them for $1 with the stipulation that they can use it rent free for all time. Then the "governmental building authority" could legally ban all guns, concealed or open, because "authorities" were not specifically named in the list of governmental units that were preempted.

Since we won, it can now also be used as stepping stone to get more places opened up to us to carry in. For instance, The Cobo Center in Detroit is owned by "Detroit Regional Convention Facility Authority", which was set up by the city of Detroit, and they don't allow firearms for their events. Since they are publicly owned they could be sued to force them to allow the carrying of firearms.

Offline jgillmanjr

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2013, 02:50:07 PM »
How about this hypothetical scenario. If we had lost, the city of Ferndale, who has tried in the past to ban guns from city hall and lost, could create a "governmental building authority" then sell city hall to them for $1 with the stipulation that they can use it rent free for all time. Then the "governmental building authority" could legally ban all guns, concealed or open, because "authorities" were not specifically named in the list of governmental units that were preempted.

Since we won, it can now also be used as stepping stone to get more places opened up to us to carry in. For instance, The Cobo Center in Detroit is owned by "Detroit Regional Convention Facility Authority", which was set up by the city of Detroit, and they don't allow firearms for their events. Since they are publicly owned they could be sued to force them to allow the carrying of firearms.

Well, it seems as if what Phil is saying is true, then Ferndale could just 'lease' their buildings to a private entity and mitigate carry that way.

I'm still curious how that logic would stand in court though.
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Offline TheQ

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Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2013, 10:35:50 PM »
I'm sure the courts would see through it as an attempt to bypass preemption and strike it down.
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Offline Hyperion

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Re: Michigan Supreme Court denies CADL leave to appeal
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2014, 04:47:52 PM »
Actually, although you are still quite smart for using Linux (Debian > * b***hes), it is not actually a typo.

You'll see this in other opinions as well (all that I've looked at, in fact) - both supreme court and COA.

I think the J just refers to the fact they are a justice or judge. I'm not 100% sure, but this is the only thing I can think of. You'll also see P.J. (I'm guessing Primary Justice/Judge) and JJ (probably just indicative of a 'regular' Justice/Judge).

So for example, if you look at the Partial Concurrence/Dissent (http://publicdocs.courts.mi.gov:81/opinions/final/coa/20121025_c304582(65)_rptr_140o-304582-final.pdf) for the COA case, you'll see GLEICHER, P.J. even though the first name and middle initital are Elizabeth L.

Like I said, I'm not 100% what the J stands for, but I'm 99.999999999999999999999% that it's not a typo.

J = "Judge" in all Michigan State courts except MSC, then it's "Justice".  P= "Presiding".  All in all your guessing was top-notch.