Author Topic: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.  (Read 7203 times)

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Offline ohiooc

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Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« on: December 11, 2013, 12:21:46 AM »
This is not entirely open carry related, but I'm curious if someone can point me in the right direction.  Please move if this is the wrong forum.

Under federal law, for purposes of purchasing a handgun, I am a resident of two states.  This confers me the ability, again under federal law, to purchase a handgun in Michigan.

As I read the Public Act 377 of 2012 Changes, to whit:

Sec. 2a. (1) The following individuals are not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, possess, use, or transport a pistol:
(a) An individual licensed under section 5b.
(b) A federally licensed firearms dealer.
(c) An individual who purchases a pistol from a federally licensed firearms dealer in compliance with 18 USC 922(t).

I would fall into exemption 2a. (1)(c).

However, the following paragraph (2a.(2)) states:
(2) If an individual described in subsection (1) purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall complete a record in triplicate on a form provided by the department of state police. The record shall include the purchaser’s concealed weapon license number or, if the purchaser is a federally licensed firearms dealer, his or her dealer license number. If the purchaser is not licensed under section 5b and is not a federally licensed firearms dealer, the record shall include the dealer license number of the federally licensed firearms dealer who is selling the pistol. The purchaser shall sign the record. The seller may retain 1 copy of the record. The purchaser shall receive 2 copies of the record and forward 1 copy to the police department of the city, village, or township in which the purchaser resides, or, if the purchaser does not reside in a city, village, or township having a police department, to the county sheriff, within 10 days following the purchase or acquisition. The return of the copy to the police department or county sheriff may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the police department or county sheriff. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police. If the purchaser is licensed under section 5b, the court shall notify the licensing authority of that determination.

I would simply forward a copy of the form to the police department or the county sheriff, correct?  They will have no record of my existence in the township, county or the state as I don't hold a drivers license/state ID in the State of Michigan (not required to purchase a handgun from an FFL).  Does this present an issue?  Anyone with experience that can help?  If you don't know, can anyone point me in the right direction to answer my question?

TIA


Offline gryphon

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 09:00:15 AM »
Under federal law, for purposes of purchasing a handgun, I am a resident of two states.
Can you explain how you can legally be a resident of two states?  My understanding is that only one can be your primary residence, and that is what matters.  If you don't have a Michigan issued ID...

Offline ohiooc

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 11:12:03 AM »
Citation #1: State of Residence

27 CFR §478.11   Meaning of terms.

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27


Citation #2: Identification Document

ATF Rul. 2010-6

To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid "identification document" (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State. Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473, which requires, among other things the transferee's residence address, including the transferee's State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.

The term, "identification document" is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as "a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a Slots... which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals" The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term "identification document" as la] document containing the name, residence address date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State. . .which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals." Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver's license, voter registration, tax record, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA's State residency requirement.

ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off-campus housing is located.

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf


Citation #3: Alternate forms of Identification

ATF From 4473

Question 20.b. Alternate Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's residence address. This alternate documentation should be recorded in question 20.b., with issuing authority and type of identification presented. A combination of government-issued documents may be provided. For example, if a U.S. citizen has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 12:32:32 PM »
Since you wont say what your state of residence is I'll assume your not a resident of MI.

In that case you can buy a pistol at a FFL in MI without a "license to purchase".
Legally that store is required to mail that pistol to an FFL of your choice in OH. and you can pick it up there.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

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Offline TheQ

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Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2013, 12:36:19 PM »

Since you wont say what your state of residence is I'll assume your not a resident of MI.

In that case you can buy a pistol at a FFL in MI without a "license to purchase".
Legally that store is required to mail that pistol to an FFL of your choice in OH. and you can pick it up there.

This is the easiest course of action.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline ohiooc

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2013, 01:42:07 PM »
Since you wont say what your state of residence is I'll assume your not a resident of MI.

<snip>
Legally that store is required to mail that pistol to an FFL of your choice in OH. and you can pick it up there.

Note my profile name.

Can you provide me a citation or support for the assertion that they are legally require to mail the pistol to an FFL in my second residence state?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:55:16 PM by ohiooc »

Offline ohiooc

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 01:46:56 PM »
This is the easiest course of action.

I understand this option and that is would be the easiest.  Sometimes the easiest isn't the most fun.  :)  While I am residing in Michigan, I don't want to travel back to my other residential state, nor do I want to pay for the shipping and the fees associated with the shipping transaction.

I'm simply looking for the state expectations when I purchase a handgun while residing in Michigan.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 02:01:11 PM by ohiooc »

Offline Divegeek

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 02:31:41 PM »
If you have a Michigan drivers license or a Michigan State ID card then you will probably be able to go to any FFL in Michigan and buy a gun. It is the state's responsibility to determine if you are a proper resident at that point. Fill out the papers, and mail the appropriate card to the Police force that has jurisdiction where you reside in Michigan.

If you have an Ohio drivers license or ID card, while technically according to the ATF you would be ok if you have an appropriate "alternative" ID, you would be hard pressed to find a Michigan FFL that would sell to you directly with out mailing it to Ohio. Federal regs say "MAY" accept an alternate ID, not "must" or "shall". Most FFL's are conservative cover their butt types and will probably refuse the sale.

Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 02:35:41 PM »
Fair enough, before we rattle off all the possible options, do you have a Mi drivers license? Do you have a MI Concealed pistol license?  :)
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

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Offline ohiooc

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 04:30:55 PM »
If you have a Michigan drivers license or a Michigan State ID card then you will probably be able to go to any FFL in Michigan and buy a gun. It is the state's responsibility to determine if you are a proper resident at that point. Fill out the papers, and mail the appropriate card to the Police force that has jurisdiction where you reside in Michigan.

If you have an Ohio drivers license or ID card, while technically according to the ATF you would be ok if you have an appropriate "alternative" ID, you would be hard pressed to find a Michigan FFL that would sell to you directly with out mailing it to Ohio. Federal regs say "MAY" accept an alternate ID, not "must" or "shall". Most FFL's are conservative cover their butt types and will probably refuse the sale.

I do not have  Michigan Driver's license.

I understood and agree paragraph #2.

I'm looking for a fairly narrow answer...assuming all else, "What are the expecatations of the State WRT the "Pistol Sales Record (RI-60)" when an individual purchases a handgun under exception 2a. (1)(c) of the Michigan Public Act 377 and is a resident of the state for Federal purposes, but a non-resident for State purposes?

Offline Jeff

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 06:43:35 PM »
I guess you could always go into a gun shop and ask them

Offline TheQ

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Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 10:14:49 PM »

I understand this option and that is would be the easiest.  Sometimes the easiest isn't the most fun.  :)  While I am residing in Michigan, I don't want to travel back to my other residential state, nor do I want to pay for the shipping and the fees associated with the shipping transaction.

I'm simply looking for the state expectations when I purchase a handgun while residing in Michigan.

Thanks!

Get a Michigan State ID listing your residence as where you are staying in MI. Then proceed with your FFL transaction as if you were a full time Michigan resident (purchase permit -- yada yada)
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline ohiooc

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 12:07:26 AM »
Get a Michigan State ID listing your residence as where you are staying in MI. Then proceed with your FFL transaction as if you were a full time Michigan resident (purchase permit -- yada yada)

I don't want to go to the BMV in both states everytime I move my residence during the year to swap back and forth.

Keeping my DL and getting a Michigan ID is not possible and violates Federal and Michigan law.

Federal

Real ID Act TITLE II--IMPROVED SECURITY FOR DRIVERS' LICENSES AND PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CARDS
H.R.1268
SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.
(d) Other Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall adopt the following practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses and
identification cards:
(6) Refuse to issue a driver's license or identification card to a person holding a driver's license issued by another State without confirmation that the person is terminating or has terminated the driver's license.

Michigan

MCL 28.291
Sec. 1., (10) The secretary of state shall not issue an official state personal identification card to a person holding an official state personal identification card issued by another state without confirmation that the person is terminating or has terminated the official state personal identification card issued by the other state.

Again, I'm looking for a fairly narrow answer...assuming all else, "What are the expecatations of the State WRT the "Pistol Sales Record (RI-60)" when an individual purchases a handgun under exception 2a. (1)(c) of the Michigan Public Act 377 and is a resident of the state for Federal purposes, but a non-resident for state purposes?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 12:15:02 AM by ohiooc »

Offline ohiooc

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Re: Multi-state resident, Michigan handgun purchase.
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 12:10:48 AM »
I guess you could always go into a gun shop and ask them

In the plan, and will, was looking to see if I could get any feedback in advance of finding a gun shop.  I'll do that next, sometimes having your ducks in a row, first, helps the process.

Thanks!