Author Topic: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions  (Read 13236 times)

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Offline hells.saints

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Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« on: December 17, 2013, 08:40:51 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 01:56:43 PM by hells.saints »

Offline casper

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 09:29:08 PM »
How can they charge him with trespassing ? They have their own rules, really. Doesn't Michigan have a preemption law ? Also the cops example of, you can't park your RV there and camp out is stupid, cause that doesn't fall under preemption, they need to get a clue.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 09:34:36 PM by casper »

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 10:25:23 PM »
I couldn't understand the audio on the second half of the video.  Anyway, you said you checked with an attorney and confirmed that a school can tresspass you (forbid you to come on the property), even though it was a public, not a private school.

Let's look at a different scenario. Let's say you were going to the school to vote.  The school can not trespass you for openly carrying a pistol then, so why can they now?

Offline hevymetal

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 10:42:42 PM »
I couldn't understand the audio on the second half of the video.  Anyway, you said you checked with an attorney and confirmed that a school can tresspass you (forbid you to come on the property), even though it was a public, not a private school.

Let's look at a different scenario. Let's say you were going to the school to vote.  The school can not trespass you for openly carrying a pistol then, so why can they now?

I believe schools can selectively isolate and exclude any individuals they choose from any school activity. I distinctly remember several parents being "Banned" from attending any school events after they were caught drinking at a dance they were supposed to be supervising. They were well over 21 so it was legal for them but alas it made no difference. They were however still allowed to attend conferences. Be branded as a troublemaker and your gone.

Voting is activity which trumps ANYTHING the school does. It just so happens in some locals it takes place in school grounds. Your right to vote superceeds their wish to keep you away. By attempting to deny you your right to vote they now are in violation of federal election law. They may not like the fact you are armed when showing up to vote, but the fact you are armed CANNOT preclude you from voting.

JMHO
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 11:45:10 PM »
I'm only a minute in but LOL, "I guess ill have to pull up the law for you"

Did you go back in to finish watching the show that the jerk lady made you miss some of by calling the cops?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:55:23 PM by Jeff »

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 08:21:57 AM »
I distinctly remember several parents being "Banned" from attending any school events after they were caught drinking at a dance they were supposed to be supervising. They were well over 21 so it was legal for them but alas it made no difference.

The difference is there is no preemption when it comes to alcohol. The school may make it's own policy in this regard. Same when it comes to RV's. Again, these scenarios have no relevancy to the OP as the state of Michigan does not preempt schools from regulating these activities.

Hells, who is your attorney? IANAL, but I personally feel both your attorney and the officer was wrong about trespassing you.

Officer: "You will be trespassed."
You: "Why?"
Officer: "Because you have a gun"
End of story

If you had entered a classroom and truly disrupted the learning environment in that classroom, then that is a different story. The speed at which the officer responded, or lack thereof, demonstrated how much you were not a disruption. IMO, there is no case for trespassing here.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 08:34:10 AM »
dublicate
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 10:50:00 AM by bigt8261 »

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 10:20:00 AM »
You can say that again.

Offline casper

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 11:39:04 AM »
At 8:40 of the video, the officer says it has to be unloaded ? REALLY ! Give me a break.

Offline casper

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 11:53:02 AM »
At 3:17. STOP saying technical loop hole.

Offline casper

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 12:04:03 PM »
The police will tell you whatever they want to get their way. Like we're a bunch of know nothings. If they had a leg to stand on, he would have been arrested, PLAIN AND SIMPLE! NEVER get legal advise from a police officer !!!!

Offline casper

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 12:11:32 PM »
The way the police handle stops like this, only make the anti gun crowds voice louder and stronger. They need to tell the anti's that it's legal and move on. NOT harass LAC's. We still have rights too, no ? What would the police say to me if I called and said there's a guy with baggy pants here and I'm afraid of him. Would he get a speech, and be told to put his pants in the trunk, (unloaded) ? It sounds stupid, because it is.

Offline TheQ

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Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »
@OP

You are aware that there is a good argument that could be made that schools are preempted, right? Under the capital area District Library versus Michigan open carry case.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline Xpiatio

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 PM »
I watched the video and have to agree with Casper.  I cringed when I heard "technical loop hole".  when people use that term, people automagically assume that the activity being done is negative and bad.  I pin it right up there next to people who deliberately bring up signs on doors when they didn't need to. 

OT: I tried all day to respond to any post via Tapatalk on Android.  Are other people experiencing the same issue?

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2013, 05:47:16 PM »
A loophole is something that was not intended. I tell the antis that if they can prove to me that it was unintended, that I will be ok with the term loophole. Otherwise, its just hollow rhetoric.

Offline TheQ

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Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2013, 06:03:04 PM »
Sen. Green was the one who wrote the shall-issue law. I suppose one could ask him if he intended it.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2013, 06:42:18 PM »
We shouldn't talk like it's a "loophole."  We shouldn't even allow that viewpoint.  That assumes the legislature has no idea what it's doing when it writes laws.  Our position must be that the laws are written that way on purpose.

Arkansas just went through this.  OC recently became legal there, and some people immediately began saying, "No, that's not what the legislature meant to do!"  Fortunately many people fought that opinion publicly, in the press, and I think it is now settled (meaning people are no longer trying to say it is not legal).  The AG eventually came out and agreed with that.

The law specifically states that only CC in a school is (generally) against the law.  Period.  That must be the end of the discussion.  Never say that it is a loophole that we are exploiting!

Offline Jeff

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2013, 08:39:44 PM »
I am exploiting the loophole that allows me to take sleeping pills at night when I can't sleep.

Offline casper

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 08:52:29 PM »
What's amazing to me is the entity that make the laws, (along with issuing CPL's) is the same entity that doesn't know how to enforce those said laws, and violates our rights while we're complying with those said laws. "You can have these privileges/rights, but we will harass you if you exercise them ?"
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 09:11:50 AM by casper »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2013, 11:39:03 AM »
1... Find a better lawyer.
2... It's not a "loophole"
3... The law's are not all that complicated once you are knowledgeable about them
4... Stand your ground. If the police really could have arrested you, they would have.
5... Find a better lawyer.
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Offline hells.saints

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2013, 01:51:52 PM »
The difference is there is no preemption when it comes to alcohol. The school may make it's own policy in this regard. Same when it comes to RV's. Again, these scenarios have no relevancy to the OP as the state of Michigan does not preempt schools from regulating these activities.

Hells, who is your attorney? IANAL, but I personally feel both your attorney and the officer was wrong about trespassing you.

Officer: "You will be trespassed."
You: "Why?"
Officer: "Because you have a gun"
End of story

If you had entered a classroom and truly disrupted the learning environment in that classroom, then that is a different story. The speed at which the officer responded, or lack thereof, demonstrated how much you were not a disruption. IMO, there is no case for trespassing here.

My  Attorney is Melissa M. Pearce, who moderates the "Ask An Attorney" section of this forum.

Offline hells.saints

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »
1... Find a better lawyer.
2... It's not a "loophole"
3... The law's are not all that complicated once you are knowledgeable about them
4... Stand your ground. If the police really could have arrested you, they would have.
5... Find a better lawyer.

1: I found her on MOC.
2: I don't think the legislators intended this. Therefore, I do think it is a loophole. But I will stop referring to it as such.
3: When the average American commits three felonies a day, I'd say the laws are very complicated.
4: Its a trespass warning. They can't arrest me until I don't comply with it. They had no grounds to arrest me until I stand my ground.
5: She's a moderator in the "Ask An Attorney" section on MOC.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2013, 02:40:50 PM »
Ms. Pearce, has been a friend to MOC, but I must respectfully disagree on this matter. Lawyers, just as doctors, can get things wrong. However, I am not a lawyer, so I would suggest that you take her word over mine. At the same time, I also suggest that you seek another opinion and ensure that they know about, and understand CADL v. MOC.

Keep in mind, many attorneys, including our own counsel, did not exactly have high hope for MOC's chances with CADL.

Also keep in mind that the Ask An Attorney section was removed due to lack of qualified participation.

It sounds as thought you have put a good deal of effort into ensuring that you are acting in a legal manner. Keep up the good work.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 03:00:23 PM by TheQ »

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2013, 04:38:40 PM »
1: I found her on MOC.
2: I don't think the legislators intended this. Therefore, I do think it is a loophole. But I will stop referring to it as such.
3: When the average American commits three felonies a day, I'd say the laws are very complicated.
4: Its a trespass warning. They can't arrest me until I don't comply with it. They had no grounds to arrest me until I stand my ground.
5: She's a moderator in the "Ask An Attorney" section on MOC.

I know that Dean Greenblatt and James Makowski have both handled gun charge cases and maybe able to steer you in the right direction , Dean is closer to you, I believe. Since this seems to be more of a selective discrimination case based on a legal activity, you may want to search for that type of lawyer? ACLU may or may not be helpful. Can't hurt to ask.
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2013, 04:50:46 PM »

3: When the average American commits three felonies a day, I'd say the laws are very complicated.

No, the average American has a reading level of a fifth grader.
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline Jeff

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2013, 05:27:32 PM »
And the body of Jabba the Hutt.

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2013, 05:38:42 PM »
No, the average American has a reading level of a fifth grader.

Sadly, this is true.

A recent study showed that 1/2 of U.S. students  could not find NY state on a globe! Pretty disturbing seeing how it was and is splashed all over the news since September 11, 2001 to every anniversary each year following. Many could not identify the United States!

So much for technology being the cure to our woes. Instead of looking at an online map the little poop monkeys are playing games and watching twerking videos....:o

http://catherinestolfi.hubpages.com/hub/Geographic-Illiteracy-National-Geographic-Survey-on-Global-Knowledge-of-Young-Americans
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 05:54:36 PM by Glock9mmOldStyle »
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2013, 06:33:22 PM »

2: I don't think the legislators intended this. Therefore, I do think it is a loophole. But I will stop referring to it as such.
Well my two cents on this, and this is just my opinion.

In the 1930's 750.234d was written to say where guns were not aloud at all without a license and it didn't include schools.

When the concealed laws changed 13 years ago every time the word 'carry' was used, the word 'concealed' was put in front of it. Every time. I think it was so that the concealed carry laws wouldn't get confused with open carrying. Legislators were aware of open carry then, I say its not a loophole.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2013, 06:38:26 PM »
Well my two cents on this, and this is just my opinion.

In the 1930's 750.234d was written to say where guns were not aloud at all without a license and it didn't include schools.

When the concealed laws changed 13 years ago every time the word 'carry' was used, the word 'concealed' was put in front of it. Every time. I think it was so that the concealed carry laws wouldn't get confused with open carrying. Legislators were aware of open carry then, I say its not a loophole.
Absolutely. The legislature has historically regulated the concealed carry of a gun.
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Offline Smashfacekrav

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Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2013, 07:39:11 PM »
Maybe I missed it but what would legally cause him to be trespassing?  Is it because people don't like guns?  My understand ing of MSP86 is clearly stated we can OC in a school with a CPL. What am I missing? 


"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2013, 08:35:36 PM »
Maybe I missed it but what would legally cause him to be trespassing?  Is it because people don't like guns?  My understand ing of MSP86 is clearly stated we can OC in a school with a CPL. What am I missing? 


"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
General George Patton

They were saying that the school could say he was trespassing in the same manner that they could say a drunk person or someone causing a bunch of problems is trespassing.   They are wrong to say they can do it over an open carried firearm though.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open Carry in School - Parents/Police have Opposite Reactions
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2013, 01:51:08 AM »
Maybe I missed it but what would legally cause him to be trespassing?

You didn't miss anything.