Author Topic: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit  (Read 3951 times)

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Offline RCanton

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March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« on: March 28, 2014, 10:04:55 AM »
Hello All, this happened yesterday (March 27, 2014) at the Canton Summit.

Very interesting OC experience with a man who came up to me at the Canton Summit earlier today: The man came up asking if I am law enforcement, to which I said no. He then said, "Well you can't open carry inside this building because there is a daycare in here." I politely informed him he was incorrect and that I have a CPL, so even if I walked into the daycare where my daughter is, I could do so. He still insisted I was wrong, at which point I mentioned MCL 750.234d and MCL 28.425o. I also pulled up MSP Legal Update 86 for him on my phone. He realized he was wrong and misinformed and admitted it. I told him why I OC and explained to him that the Canton Summit is a public building, therefore preemption applies.

Lesson learned: I was patient and calm (nervous at first..I won't lie..lol) and effective in explaining exactly what Open Carry is. I also told the parent (who also has a CPL) that I have never had an issue open carrying, in response to his initial statement that people see a gun and freak out. He apologized a couple times and I said, "It's ok sir, I have no problem answering questions." He even made a reference to how calm I was and the fact that I was not arrogant with him. We shook hands and said we will see each other next week. I will have a MOC packet for him.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 10:41:04 AM by RCanton »

Offline SD40VE

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 10:33:57 AM »
Hello All, this happened yesterday (March 27, 2014) at the Canton Summit.

Very interesting OC experience with a man who came up to me at the Canton Summit earlier today: The man came up asking if I am law enforcement, to which I said no. He then said, "Well you can't open carry inside this building because there is a daycare in here." I politely unformed him he was incorrect and that I have a CPL, so even if I walked into the daycare where my daughter is, I could do so. He still insisted I was wrong, at which point I mentioned MCL 750.234d and MCL 28.425o. I also pulled up MSP Legal Update 86 for him on my phone. He realized he was wrong and misinformed and admitted it. I told him why I OC and explained to him that the Canton Summit is a public building, therefore preemption applies.

Lesson learned: I was patient and calm (nervous at first..I won't lie..lol) and effective in explaining exactly what Open Carry is. I also told the parent (who also has a CPL) that I have never had an issue open carrying, in response to his initial statement that people see a gun and freak out. He apologized a couple times and I said, "It's ok sir, I have no problem answering questions." He even made a reference to how calm I was and the fact that I was not arrogant with him. We shook hands and said we will see each other next week. I will have a MOC packet for him.

perfect example of a situation that could have turned out entirely differently. a calm approach will usually offer better results! good job sir!

Offline gryphon

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 10:45:21 AM »
Well done, RCanton.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 01:32:00 PM »
Good job. This is what we want to accomplish and how we want to accomplish it.
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 04:40:54 PM »
A sincere suggestion RCanton - if you do not carry a recording device or use a app on your phone, you may want to consider it. Most people and police are honest. All it takes though is one liar with a agenda and you could be in a bad situation quickly. I don't want to discourage you in any way, what you are doing is great.

Imagine that after your conversation this person dialled 911 and told them you threatened him saying - "if you don't shut up I'm going to pull this gun out and blow your face off!"  The police are always going to side with the "unarmed" person as a general rule. Now, if you calmly produced a recording of a pleasant conversation with this person - guess who's getting charged now? Not you. ;)
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline SD40VE

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 04:51:42 PM »
A sincere suggestion RCanton - if you do not carry a recording device or use a app on your phone, you may want to consider it. Most people and police are honest. All it takes though is one liar with a agenda and you could be in a bad situation quickly. I don't want to discourage you in any way, what you are doing is great.

Imagine that after your conversation this person dialled 911 and told them you threatened him saying - "if you don't shut up I'm going to pull this gun out and blow your face off!"  The police are always going to side with the "unarmed" person as a general rule. Now, if you calmly produced a recording of a pleasant conversation with this person - guess who's getting charged now? Not you. ;)

valid point. bambuser is what i use and its great.

Offline RCanton

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 10:08:44 PM »
Thanks to all for your encouragement! Glock9mmOldStyle, great point! I just tested my voice recorder on my phone and it works very good. Question, would I have to let the citizen know that he is being voice recorded before I start recording him? I think I know the answer, although I am not 100% sure.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 10:15:46 PM by RCanton »

Offline gryphon

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2014, 10:43:56 PM »
No, you do not have to let anyone know you are recording them as long as you are involved.  You can't eavesdrop on someone else, though.  Then you would have to let them know.

Offline RCanton

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2014, 10:51:22 PM »
Thanks for confirming Dan.

Offline linux203

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2014, 01:27:55 AM »
No, you do not have to let anyone know you are recording them as long as you are involved.  You can't eavesdrop on someone else, though.  Then you would have to let them know.

The way I understand it, recording the conversation in the open would be legal.  However, if the person asked you to speak to them in private and then pulled you into a room with just the two of you, it would need to be with consent of all parties.  Private conversation is not defined, private place is.  The phrase often tossed around is "reasonable expectation of privacy"

Quote from: 750.539a
Definitions.

Sec. 539a.

As used in sections 539a to 539i:

(1) “Private place” means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from casual or hostile intrusion or surveillance but does not include a place to which the public or substantial group of the public has access.

(2) “Eavesdrop” or “eavesdropping” means to overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private discourse of others without the permission of all persons engaged in the discourse. Neither this definition or any other provision of this act shall modify or affect any law or regulation concerning interception, divulgence or recording of messages transmitted by communications common carriers.

Quote from: MCL 750.539c
Eavesdropping upon private conversation.

Sec. 539c.

Any person who is present or who is not present during a private conversation and who wilfully uses any device to eavesdrop upon the conversation without the consent of all parties thereto, or who knowingly aids, employs or procures another person to do the same in violation of this section, is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2014, 07:39:55 PM »
Key to using any recorder- it needs to be running BEFORE any interaction. If confronted by an individual, last thing you want to be doing is fumbling in your pocket, or, as known in many 'justified' self defense shootings, 'the armed individual was making a furtive movement', 'he seemed to be going for his (gun, knife, whatever), and I felt threatened'.

Start the recorder BEFORE you leave your home, and don't turn it off until you have returned, and are secure (and maybe not even then).
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: March 27 Civilian confusion at the Canton Summit
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2014, 07:41:45 PM »
Oh, and make sure you download your recordings to your computer. You never know when they may be useful.
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.