Open Carry while getting hair cut

[Xpiatio]

Is it open carry while you are in the chair with their sheet over you while cutting your hair?  Or would that be concealed?

[Raggs]

tuck the sheet behind the gun, I would consider it concealed if it is covered by the sheet.

[gryphon]

I would consider it concealed if it is covered by the sheet.

Agree.  This actually came up one day. I read a post on one of the forums and I think a cop happened to be in the barber shop, and when the OCer sat in the chair the cop asked him if he had a CPL because his gun was now covered.

[Xpiatio]

and now you know the rest of the story

[Gort]

Person open carrying gun in holster sits in barber chair, then the barber places a apron over the gun concealing the gun. the barber has concealed the gun not the patron, the barber can conceal a gun in his establishment without a cpl.
 

[Ezerharden]

Person open carrying gun in holster sits in barber chair, then the barber places a apron over the gun concealing the gun. the barber has concealed the gun not the patron, the barber can conceal a gun in his establishment without a cpl.

That is a stretch, and would very likely land someone in jail, and not the barber either.

[Smashfacekrav]

What kind of paranoid person needs to carry a gun while getting their hair cut!................just kidding folks. 


"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
General George Patton

[Jeff]

Because do you even know what that blue stuff is that the combs sit in?  There could be TERRORISTS in there with satchels filled with bricks and some kind of disinfectant.

[TheQ]

"While getting hair cut"....


Which hair you getting cut. I usually get more than one cut.

[CV67PAT]

Person open carrying gun in holster sits in barber chair, then the barber places a apron over the gun concealing the gun. the barber has concealed the gun not the patron, the barber can conceal a gun in his establishment without a cpl.
 

I would agree with this IF...
The barber/owner removed the gun from the holster and held it in his hand the entire time while it was under the client's apron. This way the barber/owner would be in possession of the gun and not the client. This is known as IHCC.

Of course the barber owner would have to either have a CPL or a Permit to Purchase in order to lawfully "borrow" the client's gun.

[Xpiatio]

That would be brandishing.   *Writes witty comment here *

[CV67PAT]

That would be brandishing.   *Writes witty comment here *

Not brandishing, because the barber isn't waving it menacingly. And, since it's concealed, nobody would know the barber even had a gun in his hand under the client's apron.

[Xpiatio]

that's not a gun that she is holding.  They do always ask "is there anything else I can help you with" when they get done.

[CV67PAT]

that's not a gun that she is holding.  They do always ask "is there anything else I can help you with" when they get done.

I guess because they always want the customer to have a happy ending.

[gryphon]

Of course the barber owner would have to either have a CPL or a Permit to Purchase in order to lawfully "borrow" the client's gun.

Not if the gun owner is there.

[CV67PAT]

Not if the gun owner is there.

Assuming the owner is the client under the apron.

[Ezerharden]

"While getting hair cut"....


Which hair you getting cut. I usually get more than one cut.

you have hair?

[sircapsalot]

you have hair?

HAHAHA  This gave me quite a good laugh 

[Jeff]

you have hair?

HA!

I really don't think a cop is going to give someone grief if they were open carrying to get a haircut then the barber throw an apron over them.  That would take an especially rude cop.

[LD]

HA!

I really don't think a cop is going to give someone grief if they were open carrying to get a haircut then the barber throw an apron over them.  That would take an especially rude cop.

That's not the point.
Many here and on other forums will be QUICK to point out that spitting on the sidewalk is against the law too.
The odds of an arrest or citation being issued never enters into the perceived violation.

[TheQ]

HA!

I really don't think a cop is going to give someone grief if they were open carrying to get a haircut then the barber throw an apron over them.  That would take an especially rude cop.

I disagree. I also say the chances if a successful prosecution is high.

I went to a barber shop OCing and did just this -- but I have a CPL and I considered it CC while under the apron.

[CV67PAT]

I disagree. I also say the chances if a successful prosecution is high.

I went to a barber shop OCing and did just this -- but I have a CPL and I considered it CC while under the apron.

Very high.

[TucTom]

HA!

I really don't think a cop is going to give someone grief if they were open carrying to get a haircut then the barber throw an apron over them.  That would take an especially rude cop.

To thow an apron over a openly carried pistol would then cover said pistol.
cov·er verb \ˈkə-vər\
: to put something over, on top of, or in front of (something else) especially in order to protect, hide, or close it

[Jeff]

I understand the definition, and that it is then technically concealed and then the chances of a conviction are very high.

All I'm saying is that, if you went into a barber shop open carrying and there was a cop in there getting his hair cut.  Then as soon as the apron went over you he busted out the handcuffs, that would be one *insert random insult*

Those types of people do exist though and it's not good to take that sort of risk.  I wouldn't do it without a CPL.

It's just depressing to think someone would take that opportunity to run you through the grinder.

I guess if you were carrying in the 5-6 o'clock position you better not ever sit in a chair  

[jgillmanjr]

Well, here's the question I have.

Law states you have to disclose if you get pulled over.

However, if a cop were to watch you get draped, and didn't know whether or not you had a CPL, could he force you to produce one?

I would think not, but it *is* the government we're talking about.

[Xpiatio]

if you have your CPL (as told by my CPL instructor) you have to tell the officer even in mutual friendly talking that you have a CPL and if you are carrying. I'm sure someone here can affirm or deny this.

[TheQ]

if you have your CPL (as told by my CPL instructor) you have to tell the officer even in mutual friendly talking that you have a CPL and if you are carrying. I'm sure someone here can affirm or deny this.

Incorrect. Only if you are "stopped". Cite: MCL 28.425f.

[Raggs]

if you have your CPL (as told by my CPL instructor) you have to tell the officer even in mutual friendly talking that you have a CPL and if you are carrying. I'm sure someone here can affirm or deny this.

An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.
To me the keyword is stopped, a mutually friendly chat ( or fishing expedition ) is not a stop, So I would not disclose anything.

[mosnar87]

snip~
To me the keyword is stopped, a mutually friendly chat ( or fishing expedition ) is not a stop, So I would not disclose anything.

I have received a few funny looks for asking if I was being detained during "fishing" conversations, but no detention means no disclosure from me.

[linux203]

"Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

IMO... I am not a lawyer...
Yes, disclosure required.
No, you are not being stopped.

The Officer would need a reasonable articulable suspicion to detain you. If he saw you load the firearm from the trunk, that would be RAS of a CCW when the firearm was covered. 

[mrvelous01]

In response to a previous poster questioning why you would carry a gun to get your hair cut ... if you get your hair cut in Roseville (MI) then you may want to carry a gun. Here's why...

 As I'm sure a lot of us do, I have been going to the same place for over 10 years to get my haircut.  This shop is on Gratiot Ave near Masonic in Roseville.  About 2 years ago I went there on a nice sunny Saturday to get my haircut.  I had my 3 (?) month old Siberian Husky with me in her kennel in the back seat.  I was taking her to meet my the shop owner, then I was going out to dinner with family.  Whoda thought I needed to carry a gun to get a haircut and go to dinner in Rochester?  Ha.  So I didn't carry my .380 that day.  Bet you know where this is going, right?  (actually you'd be sorta wrong).

As I was getting out of my truck a guy in a red beater pickup pulled off Gratiot and rolled up about 2 spots away.   The way he parked he couldn't be seen from the shop.  I thought this was unusual since the parking lot was big, it was empty, he parked almost next to me, and he was African American.  Now before you call me racist or a profiler please note that this particular strip mall had 4 businesses:  Red Wing Shoes, Weight Watchers, a skateboard shop, and the hair salon.  He just didn't strike me as the typical customer of any of those stores. 

As I got out of my truck he gives me a stare and says "nice day huh?".  I thought to myself "yeah, nice day to not have a gun".   Since he was by himself I figured he was just going to rob me and not take my car because he'd be leaving his behind.  In retrospect it might have been stolen so maybe my logic was flawed.  Whatever.  This is my story and I'm sticking to it.

I went to open the back door and get the puppy and he got out of his beater.  As I got her out of her kennel and turned around, he was less than 8 feet away from me.  Don't even go there.  There was absolutely no room to mistake what direction he was going and it was directly at me.  This is the funny (good?) part.  As soon as he saw my 3 month old Husky puppy in my arms he turned around, got in his truck, and drove away without saying a word.   Who needs a concealed handgun when you have a concealed puppy

From that day on I have never gone there without carrying a concealed or OC handgun.  And I always watch for red beater pickup trucks, too.

[Pond Scum]

Who needs a concealed handgun when you have a concealed puppy

Sounds to me that you were OC'ing that puppy!  Nothing concealed about it.   I strongly suggest you keep it up with the OC .... that is unless you have your CPL ..... Concealed Puppy License!   

[jgillmanjr]

Er, disclose was a poor word choice on my part, because in the scenario we're talking about, the cop would watch it get covered and become concealed.

What I should have said was show the officer that you have your CPL.

Here's the way I look at it, even if a cop saw you start carrying concealed (whether it be getting draped in a barbers chair or pulling your jacket over your piece), I would *think* that wouldn't give him authority to demand to have your present your CPL. Of course, this is operating under the assumption the government and its agents act logically (lulz). <--- That last part is why I'm bouncing my question, to see what the actual practical legal application is.

So here's how I would see it from a logical perspective:

1. Carrying a concealed pistol (generally) requires a license.
2. Driving a car requires a license.
3. If law enforcement can request you to show your CPL based on the mere knowledge that you are carrying a concealed pistol (under the definition of that in the statute) to verify that you are in or are not in compliance with the law, then the logical biconditional is that law enforcement would be able to just stop you at random while you are driving to verify that you have a drivers license (oh, and let's not forget insurance). Given that they can't (assuming they aren't making stuff up), then it would follow that they couldn't force you to produce your CPL w/o reason to suspect a violation has committed.

Like I said, the above is logic. The government is often not logical. Ergo, the legal realities may differ, and that's what I'm curious about.

[CV67PAT]

Anytime you are requested to show your CPL by a LEO, you are required to do so, if you are in possession of a concealed pistol.

28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to peace officer; violation; penalty; notice to department and issuing board; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

Sec. 5f.

(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology.

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

[gryphon]

the logical biconditional is that law enforcement would be able to just stop you at random while you are driving to verify that you have a drivers license (oh, and let's not forget insurance). Given that they can't

They can't because of case law.

[jgillmanjr]

They can't because of case law.

Hrm, damn. Wonder if that same case law could be used to strike down 28.425f...

You happen to know what the case was that addressed the random stopping of drivers to verify they have their license?

[gryphon]

DELAWARE v. PROUSE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_v._Prouse

Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that police may not stop motorists without any reasonable suspicion to suspect crime or illegal activity, to check their driver's license and auto registration.

[mrvelous01]

Keep in mind that right or wrong a police officer can, at his discretion, really mess up your day and cost you a lot of money.  Even if he knows that questioning, harassing, or arresting you is wrong, so what?  You will prove him wrong in court.  But it cost YOU time and money to prove he was wrong.  He gets paid whether he arrests you or not, and he also gets paid to go to court to get a slap on the wrist for over reacting.  Big deal.  You win.  Pick your battles.  They could be expensive.

[CV67PAT]

Keep in mind that right or wrong a police officer can, at his discretion, really mess up your day and cost you a lot of money.  Even if he knows that questioning, harassing, or arresting you is wrong, so what?  You will prove him wrong in court.  But it cost YOU time and money to prove he was wrong.  He gets paid whether he arrests you or not, and he also gets paid to go to court to get a slap on the wrist for over reacting.  Big deal.  You win.  Pick your battles.  They could be expensive.

You're right. You should leave your gun at home.

[mrvelous01]

I think you missed my point which was that we ultimately need more clarity in our OC and concealed laws because they are open to interpretation.  But if you want to challenge authority by going half concealed then that is your option, but a cop may not (yet) think it is your right.

[TucTom]

You're right. You should leave your gun at home.

I agree with Pat in this conversation.

[gryphon]

I think you missed my point which was that we ultimately need more clarity in our OC and concealed laws because they are open to interpretation.  But if you want to challenge authority by going half concealed then that is your option, but a cop may not (yet) think it is your right.

There are no OC laws.  Half-concealing is only a grey area if you do not possess a CPL.  That is because it is not codified in law as in other states, such as Virginia.

[CV67PAT]

I think you missed my point which was that we ultimately need more clarity in our OC and concealed laws because they are open to interpretation.  But if you want to challenge authority by going half concealed then that is your option, but a cop may not (yet) think it is your right.

There is no such thing as half concealed, unless you are talking about a Concealed Pistol Free Zone.
You need to read further education. You seem to be very ill informed and quite lacking in knowledge of Michigan Firearm Statutes. I suggest you read the link that Gryphon posted for you.

This one...   http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

[Smashfacekrav]

There is no such thing as half concealed

I think my wife was half pregnant once.


Open carry, Open minds

[CV67PAT]

I think my wife was half pregnant once.


Open carry, Open minds

Are you sure she wasn't almost pregnant?

[Raggs]

I think my wife was half pregnant once.


Open carry, Open minds

My wife was double pregnant once, what a friggin surprise!