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Author Topic: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?  (Read 10590 times)

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Offline part deux

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How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« on: January 11, 2014, 03:02:16 PM »
In watching the video, trying avoid my blood from boiling over, I noted that Mr. Deffert really needed to stop talking so much.

I understand it's an extremely stressful and disconcerting situation, so how would the experts suggest handling an encounter like this?

Obviously complying with the instructions being given by the criminal who has a gun pointed at you.
Asking if you are being detained or are you free to go?
If you're being detained, what is the RAS?
Then asking for your attorney to be present for any further questioning?
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Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 08:10:28 PM »
Most people think they know how they will react, until the $hit hits the fan. Most people also get nervous when they have cops approaching, let alone with a gun pointing at them. I will not say a bad word about Mr. Deffert' he was a victim here.

Your points (Wash, Rinse, Repeat) above are the advice to follow, and hopefully under stress we can remember them.

We all know talking to police is a bad idea.... we should leave it at that.    ;)
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"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 08:29:15 PM »
Not being that experienced with police encounters, I can only say what I've don.

"I don't want to answer any questions."

"I will not give you my I.D."

"I don't want to answer any questions."

"I am not going to give you my I.D."

Whether I am being detained, which by the LEO actions I was, or not, that is all I have ever said. Once, I didn't even ask if I was free to go. I just walked away leaving him standing there with his mouth open.

The other time when I was told to come back, I repeated that I wasn't going to talk. At that point that one said go ahead and go.

In the situation here, I would have complied with his unlawful orders. Let him rant (he probably would've ranted even more when met with silence) and then done as the victim has done and consult an a COMPETENT attorney (such as Mr. Dulan, Mr. Greenblatt, Mr Johnson, or Mr Shyster.)

Before you are given your Miranda rights, everything you say is still pretty much admissible as "spontaneous utterances." And you have the right to remain silent even BEFORE the Miranda warnings. Exercise your rights. ALL of them. The police are trained to extract information from you without "questioning" you. Train yourself to STFU!

Wash rinse, repeat was written for a reason. And it was written based upon experience with police. Take advantage of the experience of those that wrote it. (Ghostrider et al)
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Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 11:00:40 PM »
Hind sight is always 20/20. Props to Johann for knowing his stuff!
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Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 11:08:11 PM »
Another profound wit of wisdom from the bear.  :)

We critique his actions, not so much to criticize, but rather to help others be prepared in case they are faced with a similar situation.

He didn't do bad. I just didn't talk as much during my "encounters" as he did. But I had the benefit of others' experiences and advice to draw upon.
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Offline gryphon

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 11:43:52 PM »
Quote from: Glock9mmOldStyle on January 11, 2014, 08:10:28 PM
Most people think they know how they will react, until the $hit hits the fan.

All I will say about this is that people need to think about how they will react BEFORE it happens.  That includes getting a gun stuck in your face when you are sitting in your car or the police confront you for open carrying.

I can say from experience that knowing what you will do beforehand is very beneficial.  And I will leave it at that.
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Offline part deux

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 07:36:37 AM »
I didn't start this to criticize what he did, but provide a learning opportunity for others who may be in a similar, but hopefully less intense encounter.

MOC has done some incredible work, including convincing me to OC more.  But OC comes with certain risks that one must be prepared to deal with.  This is a continuation of the preparation and training.
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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 12:43:58 PM »
Quote from: part deux on January 12, 2014, 07:36:37 AM
I didn't start this to criticize what he did, but provide a learning opportunity for others who may be in a similar, but hopefully less intense encounter.

MOC has done some incredible work, including convincing me to OC more.  But OC comes with certain risks that one must be prepared to deal with.  This is a continuation of the preparation and training.
Absolutely. Even the repeated antics of brainless1911 provided us with insight as to how law enforcement is trained to "investigate" people. His banter and attempts to educate LEOs showed us how they will engage in conversation to just get more information from their suspect. All the while that they are doing so, they are not "questioning" the suspect. Therefore the spontaneous utterances of the suspect remain as evidence for them to achieve the level of RAS they need to get to probable cause.
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Offline casper

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 01:11:33 PM »
Quote from: part deux on January 11, 2014, 03:02:16 PM
In watching the video, trying avoid my blood from boiling over, I noted that Mr. Deffert really needed to stop talking so much.

I understand it's an extremely stressful and disconcerting situation, so how would the experts suggest handling an encounter like this?

Obviously complying with the instructions being given by the criminal who has a gun pointed at you.
Asking if you are being detained or are you free to go?
If you're being detained, what is the RAS?
Then asking for your attorney to be present for any further questioning?
What video ?
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Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 01:28:19 PM »
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Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline casper

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 06:08:24 PM »
Wow, I'm going to Grand Rapids, so I better fore warn the police there, I'm not gonna be doing anything illegal. Cause according to them, you have to tell your going to abide by the law first. This kind of BS has to stop. Why do we allow this to happen ? Can anyone tell me ?
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Offline casper

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 06:36:16 PM »
The police "knowingly" broke the law on camera. Is anything going to be done about that ? The law doesn't apply to them then ?
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Offline Raggs

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 06:53:18 PM »
Quote from: casper on January 12, 2014, 06:08:24 PM
Wow, I'm going to Grand Rapids, so I better fore warn the police there, I'm not gonna be doing anything illegal. Cause according to them, you have to tell your going to abide by the law first. This kind of BS has to stop. Why do we allow this to happen ? Can anyone tell me ?

We aren't allowing it, Deffert is suing as he should. Hopefully the settlement is large enough to make the city take it seriously.
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Offline casper

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 06:57:22 PM »
Good for him. That's good to hear.
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Offline casper

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 08:50:48 PM »
It is sad people have to sue to get the police to follow the law.
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Offline Xpiatio

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 09:06:15 PM »
makes one wonder if we are assumed guilty til proven innocent in GR.
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Offline casper

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Re: How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 09:12:18 PM »
Yup, and as long as we allow it, it will continue to happen. I think we need to make an example of these law breakers.
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Offline Smashfacekrav

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How Should Deffert had handled the encounter?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 09:17:59 PM »
As silly as it may be or sound, look in the mirror or at a friend or spouse and repeat, am I being detained, am I free to go. In martial arts we train in muscle memory and talking out loud. The more you practice it the easy it may come to you. Just like weapon immersion. Like Ty Webb says "be the ball." 


"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
General George Patton
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