Partially covered outside the belt holster: open, concealed, or in violation?

[mrvelous01]

I frequently open carry using an outside the belt holster on my hip.  My entire gun, from grip to holster to tip is visible, but sometimes my jacket covers the top half of the gun leaving the bottom of the holster visible.

When that happens ...

Since it is partially covered am I in violation of the Open Carry law?

Since it is ONLY partially covered am I in violation of the Concealed Carry law?

(Yes I have a MI CPL)

BTW, I submitted this same question to the MI State Police website and never got an answer.

[Xpiatio]

I believe partially covered is considered concealed.  I'm still waiting for my CPL, so I make sure the holster and any part of the gun not covered by the holster is not covered by my clothing.

[TucTom]

You have your CPL and this wasn't covered in class? It should have been as far as I am concerned.

Okay lets say it was and you forgot, you have your CPL so it doesn't matter. If you didn't that in my eyes is concealed. but by law? Also there is no such thing as "open carry law" once again this should have been covered in your class.

[Raggs]

I frequently open carry using an outside the belt holster on my hip.  My entire gun, from grip to holster to tip is visible, but sometimes my jacket covers the top half of the gun leaving the bottom of the holster visible.

When that happens ...

Since it is partially covered am I in violation of the Open Carry law?

Since it is ONLY partially covered am I in violation of the Concealed Carry law?

(Yes I have a MI CPL)

BTW, I submitted this same question to the MI State Police website and never got an answer.

As I am sure someone will point out, so it may as well be me, there is no open carry law.
If you have a CPL you are ok with any of the ways you mention. Without a CPL I would make sure that I was carrying with an OWB and my shirt didn't cover it up at all.

[CV67PAT]

As I am sure someone will point out, so it may as well be me, there is no open carry law.
If you have a CPL you are ok with any of the ways you mention. Without a CPL I would make sure that I was carrying with an OWB and my shirt didn't cover it up at all.

NO he is NOT ok with ANY of the ways he mentioned.
If a person with a CPL is carrying in a Concealed Pistol Free Zone, the pistol MUST not be concealed at all. Even the momentary covering of any part of the pistol by clothing is CONCEALED.

[Raggs]

NO he is NOT ok with ANY of the ways he mentioned.
If a person with a CPL is carrying in a Concealed Pistol Free Zone, the pistol MUST not be concealed at all. Even the momentary covering of any part of the pistol by clothing is CONCEALED.

Everywhere he mentioned, did he mention a PFZ?

[CV67PAT]

Everywhere he mentioned, did he mention a PFZ?

Your arbitrary response was inadequate and misleading, to say the least. Giving complete and accurate information is the objective here.

While the OP did not explicitly address Conceal Pistol Free Zones, it doesn't mean that they should be overlooked when attempting to provide information relative to the aspects of when a  CCW violation may or may not occur.

[mrvelous01]

To clear up the question, I did not intend to question PFZ's.  It might have been mentioned in this thread or another I was reading, but someone talked about sitting down and dealing with exposing a concealed pistol (or is it concealing an exposed pistol?).  That is my gray area.  I typically go 100% whether completely exposing while OC, or completely concealing while carrying concealed, so partial concealment has been a question on my mind for a few years.  Thanks.

[part deux]

To clear up the question, I did not intend to question PFZ's.  It might have been mentioned in this thread or another I was reading, but someone talked about sitting down and dealing with exposing a concealed pistol (or is it concealing an exposed pistol?).  That is my gray area.  I typically go 100% whether completely exposing while OC, or completely concealing while carrying concealed, so partial concealment has been a question on my mind for a few years.  Thanks.

Are you asking your question as a CPL holder, or a hypothetical non CPL holder?

With your CPL, you can do anything you want to.  Covered, partially covered, completely exposed.  It doesn't matter with the CPL.

[mrvelous01]

In my first CPL class (many years ago) we were warned that exposure of the "concealed" gun is a violation.  One example story was of a woman who opened her purse at Meijer to get her check book and was met by Sterling Heights Police outside the store because the clerk saw her gun in her purse and panicked.

I have seen many replies on this site and others and my conclusion is that 1). it is a gray area and 2). nobody has the "right" answer and 3). Whoever wrote the MI CPL law has no clue about OC or how the OC and concealed currently fail to co-exist within the definitions of our laws.  Maybe one day a respected member of government or law enforcement will write an opinion that will clarify this.

[CV67PAT]

In my first CPL class (many years ago) we were warned that exposure of the "concealed" gun is a violation.  One example story was of a woman who opened her purse at Meijer to get her check book and was met by Sterling Heights Police outside the store because the clerk saw her gun in her purse and panicked.

I have seen many replies on this site and others and my conclusion is that 1). it is a gray area and 2). nobody has the "right" answer and 3). Whoever wrote the MI CPL law has no clue about OC or how the OC and concealed currently fail to co-exist within the definitions of our laws.  Maybe one day a respected member of government or law enforcement will write an opinion that will clarify this.

It's no gray area. If you have a CPL, you can either carry concealed or open in a non-PFZ. In a PFZ with a CPL, one must Open Carry.

I would suggest that you attend one of the Michigan Open Carry Seminars. There is one in Novi.

http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3540.0.html

[gryphon]

1). it is a gray area

It's not a grey area.  Having a CPL gives you the option to conceal, it doesn't mandate it.  One thing we have found out here is that many CPL instructors are giving out bad information in their classes.

Maybe one day a respected member of government or law enforcement will write an opinion that will clarify this.

If you want to know law enforcement's position, read this:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

[part deux]

In my first CPL class (many years ago) we were warned that exposure of the "concealed" gun is a violation.  One example story was of a woman who opened her purse at Meijer to get her check book and was met by Sterling Heights Police outside the store because the clerk saw her gun in her purse and panicked.

I have seen many replies on this site and others and my conclusion is that 1). it is a gray area and 2). nobody has the "right" answer and 3). Whoever wrote the MI CPL law has no clue about OC or how the OC and concealed currently fail to co-exist within the definitions of our laws.  Maybe one day a respected member of government or law enforcement will write an opinion that will clarify this.

As stated above, not a gray area.

CPL instructors in general are incapable of correctly understanding, much less passing along the law.  LEO are generally worse.

Could the Sterling Heights event happened, sure, but highly unlikely.  It was more than likely made up, or it happened to someones cousin's, brother, neighbor.  Meijers makes it clear they follow state law.  A clerk wouldn't call 911, especially on a customer that is paying her bill

Read the PDF posted above.  Read the MOC tri-fold.  Attend an OC seminar.

[Raggs]

I haven't heard a CPL instructor say OC was illegal, some I have come into contact with warn that you might have unwanted attention from LE. I heard of one instructor in Muskegon area who told his class "don't be THAT guy".

[TucTom]

mrvelous01, Like Pat said - Go to a seminar in your area. If there isn't any in your area say something so MOC can try to get something close to you.

And like it has been said If you have your CPL, IT IS NOT A GREY AREA.

Follow what Pats says (he writes better than I do).

[Jeff]

One thing we have found out here is that many CPL instructors are giving out bad information in their classes.

COUGH...COUGH....Brian Turo, Detroit Arms...COUGH.....dang this cold.

[mrvelous01]

Thanks all for the information.  I often see seminars north and south of me but nothing in the Royal Oak/Ferndale area.

[Jeff]

Thanks all for the information.  I often see seminars north and south of me but nothing in the Royal Oak/Ferndale area.

How dare our parents give birth to us in this area where nothing cool happens, then we just stay because it's what we know.

[gryphon]

You're fitting right in here, Jeff.   

[TucTom]

Thanks all for the information.  I often see seminars north and south of me but nothing in the Royal Oak/Ferndale area.

Well only because I believe you really need to attend one of these seminars. I would be willing to drive from Kalamazoo and pick you up to go to the Flint seminar on 1-31. I work Fridays but I will take the day off to help you. The seminar starts at 7PM let me know time and place to pick you up.

Or you could go to the Novi seminar on 2-21. I see on Google maps it says Royal Oak to Novi is 19.3 miles so that is not far unless you do not have a car and once again my offer is there.

Edited to add: Or simply ask on the board if you need a ride.

[LD]

As stated above, not a gray area.

CPL instructors in general are incapable of correctly understanding, much less passing along the law.  LEO are generally worse.

Could the Sterling Heights event happened, sure, but highly unlikely.  It was more than likely made up, or it happened to someones cousin's, brother, neighbor.  Meijers makes it clear they follow state law.  A clerk wouldn't call 911, especially on a customer that is paying her bill

Read the PDF posted above.  Read the MOC tri-fold.  Attend an OC seminar.

If you stop to think about this, In the time it took for the woman to walk out of the store, the clerk would have had to leave her station, call 911, the operator would have had to dispatch an officer, and the officer would have had to respond and FIND this woman in the parking lot.

Somehow I don't think all that could have happened in the time available.

[CV67PAT]

Well only because I believe you really need to attend one of these seminars. I would be willing to drive from Kalamazoo and pick you up to go to the Flint seminar on 1-31. I work Fridays but I will take the day off to help you. The seminar starts at 7PM let me know time and place to pick you up.

Or you could go to the Novi seminar on 2-21. I see on Google maps it says Royal Oak to Novi is 19.3 miles so that is not far unless you do not have a car and once again my offer is there.

Edited to add: Or simply ask on the board if you need a ride.

That's a gracious offer TT. As you pointed out, the Novi seminar is roughly 20 miles from his location. I expect that he will neither accept your offer, nor drive the mere 20 miles.

It amazes me how those in the rural areas will drive quite a long distance, often an hour or so, to attend MOC events. But those in the urban SE Region won't drive more than 10 miles. I often get comments, especially after a seminar or eat & greet, of "when are you going to have one in my area?" This coming from someone in Sterling Hts right after a Utica event. Or from someone in Fraser right after a Roseville event. SMH

[part deux]

Maybe they could help by finding a local OC friendly establishment that would appreciate some new customers!

[TucTom]

That's a gracious offer TT. As you pointed out, the Novi seminar is roughly 20 miles from his location. I expect that he will neither accept your offer, nor drive the mere 20 miles.

I agree with you Pat. I fully expect to either get no response OR I will drive there and find nobody to pick up. But I will keep the offer up, because some people think OC'rs are unfriendly.

[karudin]

I too am thinking about going to a seminar here soon. Anyone wanting to car pool I'm in Howell.

[CV67PAT]

I too am thinking about going to a seminar here soon. Anyone wanting to car pool I'm in Howell.

We're having a meet & greet in Howell on Feb 22nd. Come on out and join us.

Info here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3631.0.html

You might find someone to carpool with to the Novi MOC seminar on Feb 28th.
Info here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3540.0.html

[karudin]

We're having a meet & greet in Howell on Feb 22nd. Come on out and join us.

Info here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3631.0.html

You might find someone to carpool with to the Novi MOC seminar on Feb 28th.
Info here: http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3540.0.html

Well the meet and greet in Howell is on the calendar now, so I'll be there. As far as the seminar in Novi, as long as schedule and wife permit (I have 3 kids with a 4th on the way, have to check in before planning anything haha) I'll be driving.