Author Topic: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police  (Read 3711 times)

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Offline bigt8261

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http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/sheriffs_advice_when_visitor_w.html#incart_river_default

Quote
In a memo to the City Commission, City Manager Patrick Waterman wrote that “the likelihood of this happening is high given that many 2nd Amendment promoters are currently ‘testing the waters’ in many public buildings, looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit.” For example, Grand Rapids Police are being sued for how they responded to a caller’s concern about a man who legally open-carried on the street while talking and singing to himself.

You may politely contact Hudsonville City Manager Patrick Waterman HERE to tell him why you OC.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 02:30:20 PM »
Other municipalities are taking notice of what is going on in GR. Whether they follow the law because they want to respect our rights, or whether they are afraid of a lawsuit means little to me as long as they are following the law.

Offline TucTom

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 02:38:12 PM »
Thanks Tom, I sent an email explaining how I was confused because he wrote the "never know when or where" line and I agree with him. Which is of course why I carry.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 02:50:14 PM »
Other municipalities are taking notice of what is going on in GR. Whether they follow the law because they want to respect our rights, or whether they are afraid of a lawsuit means little to me as long as they are following the law.

+50

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 03:12:32 PM »
email sent:
Quote
Hello City Manager Waterman,

I am writing to you in response to recent comments that you were quoted as making in an MLive article HERE. Specifically, that open carriers are "testing the waters" and are "looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit".

Sir, with due respect, I believe that you have us misunderstood.

Speaking as a leadership member for an organization that represents Open Carriers, I assure you that we are indeed not looking for a lawsuit. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Myself and other members of my organization put forward a great deal of work to educated both sides in an effort to see legal action avoided. We believe the laws surrounding open carry in Michigan are clear and well established, and it is our goal to educate both citizens and government on what those laws plainly say and mean.

As an open carrier, I open carry primarily as a means of protecting myself, wife and child. Open carry has repeatedly been shown to deter crime before it starts, as opposed to stopping crime after it starts as carrying concealed is more closely related to. This is exactly why police officers generally open carry. I, in no way, wish to be someone that successfully used their firearm to defend themselves or their family, but rather, it is my sincere wish that I end up someone who never had to defend themselves with their firearm.

Furthermore, I am a law abiding citizen, and that does not change based on some imaginary line that I have crossed, just as a criminal is not deterred by that very same line. As a potential victim, I have the misfortune of not being the one that decides when or where I will become said victim.
Again, myself and Michigan Open Carry seek to educate not only those that must follow the law, but also those that that are tasked with enforcing the law. The majority of the time, municipalities that we reach out to are willing to work with us and respect the laws of this State. Other times, some we reach out to possess an ideological stubbornness that might cause them to believe that they are better off not following State law. Often times the actions of the stubborn ideological few lead not only to their own detriment, but to the detriment of citizens of the municipality and the State.

If you would like more information, have any questions, or ever need assistance, please do not hesitate to ask.

Sincerely,
Tom Lambert
Assistant Legislative Director
Assistant SW Regional Coordinator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

Offline karudin

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 03:38:00 PM »
I'd be very interested to find out why these cities are trying to bring up so much attention to open carry. I'm wondering if there is some money suddenly making it to the coffers of these cities. Many cities don't bat an eye at open carry but people closely tied to these anti-gun nuts in office are making something out of nothing just to further their agenda.

I have to admit the whole thing is a delicate situation because it just takes one example of an OC'er being aggressive to tarnish all OC'ers. No matter how many good things MOC does as an organization it is important that OC'ers don't react to these reports in a negative way. I'm honestly wondering if that is their goal.

One thing that I find hard is how to talk to people that have their mind so made up that no matter what you say they don't want to listen. I've tried to talk to a few but I'd be better off talking to a wall. What has anyone done in this particular situation.


Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 05:58:07 PM »
Dear Mr. Waterman,

In a recent article on mlive.com, you were quoted as saying ‘testing the waters’ in many public buildings, looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit.”

Nothing could be further from the truth. The decision to carry concealed, or openly, is completely dependant on a umber of factors, some of which include:

      Comfort- intentionally dressing to conceal a firearm, particularly in warmer weather, necessitates additional layers of clothing
      Legality (age)- there exists an old law that precludes individuals between 18 and 21 from receiving a concealed pistol license; mind       you that includes active military and veterans.
      Legality (CPL waiting times)- currently Ottawa and Kent County have egregious wait times for individuals to receive a CPL.
      Tactical advantage- some hold that a sidearm, unencumbered by additional layers of clothing, provides quicker access in the event       of an actual emergency. Other believe (rightly so) that it acts as a deterrent to victimization. Although there is only anecdotal          evidence, it also is difficult to obtain data on crimes that do not happen due to the presence of a lawfully  armed citizen.

To suggest that they are looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit is offensive. Although there are, indeed, some attention seekers who run 'reverse stings' on corrupt law enforcement officials, they are very rare. I am not aware of any in the West Michigan area. The cost of litigation for these types of suits generally consume the meager awards one may expect. It's just not profitable.

For myself, I don't take additional steps to intentionally conceal my sidearm; it is irrelevant to me if it is concealed or exposed. I'm not looking to shock anyone, or garner unwanted attention. By the same token, I do not feel the need to have the 'element of surprise' in a encounter with the criminal element here in Grand Rapids.

My wife and I both carry, but before you condemn us, you should know we are both missionaries involved in rescuing battered women. We carry to protect ourselves and our charges. Previously, I was worship leader and security at a small local church. Yes, I carried concealed during services, so as not to distract from any move of the Spirit.

Please take the time to walk a mile in our shoes before you make blanket statements about 'open carriers'; you couldn't be further from the truth.

Sincerely,
Timothy M' Beahan
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 07:55:03 PM »
Hey bear - if you have not sent it yet, change "umber of factors" to number of. ;)

Great letter. I am sure that Mr. Richard Cranium will enjoy it.
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline linux203

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 09:59:39 PM »
CC is legal in city offices, therefore, they should call the police on anyone who appears to be over 21 years of age.

A public comment like that is antagonistic.  I'm sure several people will OC there because of this.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2014, 10:15:38 PM »
A public comment like that is antagonistic.  I'm sure several people will OC there because of this.

This just in. Ottawa County Sheriff says "Come on down!"

Offline Xpiatio

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 08:06:36 AM »
This just in. Ottawa County Sheriff says "Come on down!"

that's awesome

Offline SD40VE

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2014, 02:51:53 PM »
i live no where near there... would me writing help the cause even though it is not directly affecting me as i am not in the area? if not ill type one of my short novels :)

Offline Jeff

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2014, 03:39:57 PM »
I told a friend about this, he said they should, because if a store manager told an OC to leave they might flip out.  Because when he was in a store last year someone was OC and my friend was looking at his gun and the OC said "WHAT, you got a FN problem with it"

I told him that's bogus, because with all the heat gun owners get, we are generally way more polite and respectful than the rest of the people to set a positive example.

Offline SD40VE

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2014, 04:53:30 PM »
I told a friend about this, he said they should, because if a store manager told an OC to leave they might flip out.  Because when he was in a store last year someone was OC and my friend was looking at his gun and the OC said "WHAT, you got a FN problem with it"

I told him that's bogus, because with all the heat gun owners get, we are generally way more polite and respectful than the rest of the people to set a positive example.

exactly, people stare at me all the time, i just stare back and make funny faces its quite comical

Offline Raggs

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 05:02:44 PM »
I told a friend about this, he said they should, because if a store manager told an OC to leave they might flip out.  Because when he was in a store last year someone was OC and my friend was looking at his gun and the OC said "WHAT, you got a FN problem with it"

I told him that's bogus, because with all the heat gun owners get, we are generally way more polite and respectful than the rest of the people to set a positive example.

I have heard this type of thing before, though very seldom, I always try to be on my best behavior especially when I am open carrying.

Offline TucTom

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 05:13:53 PM »
I have heard this type of thing before, though very seldom, I always try to be on my best behavior especially when I am open carrying.

A lot of us do but there are those people and I have seen it once personally. It didn't occur here in Michigan but it did occur.

Offline 91 whiskey

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 07:38:30 PM »
Has anyone that sent emails to this guy received any responses?  I did and as of yet I got zip.
Elephants and Asses
Screwing The Masses.

Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 09:43:41 PM »
No response, yet....

/crickets/
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 09:46:22 PM »
probably better odds of winning the lottery than actually getting a reply.

Offline SD40VE

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 08:14:22 AM »
probably better odds of winning the lottery than actually getting a reply.

or getting struck by lightning 3 times in a span of a week

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2014, 11:05:42 AM »
or getting struck by lightning 3 times in a span of a week
How about just twice?
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 01:35:58 PM »
I stubbed my toe on the dresser twice in one night before.

Offline Xpiatio

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2014, 02:19:44 PM »
actually did you know that what we consider to be lightning strike is actually hundreds of strikes happening very fast?  So in essence lightening always does hit the same spot more than once.

Offline Smashfacekrav

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Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2014, 07:16:52 PM »
Just sent a email to manager. Forgot to paste it here first. I got the feeling he is being bombarded.  Did the Ottawa sheriff really say "come on down".


Open carry, Open minds

Offline Raggs

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2014, 07:28:41 PM »
He did not say come on down, but he may as well have!

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2014, 07:32:25 PM »
He did not say come on down, but he may as well have!

^ this

Offline Smashfacekrav

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Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2014, 09:47:32 PM »
Ok. I was always told there are no dumb questions.


Open carry, Open minds

Offline Raggs

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 10:38:10 AM »
Sitting in the public library in Hudsonville (Ottawa County Public building) open carrying. Listening to Aerosmith with another open carrier. No drama, yet!

Offline Xpiatio

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2014, 10:59:48 AM »
The music isn't loud enough.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2014, 11:52:32 AM »
Sitting in the public library in Hudsonville (Ottawa County Public building) open carrying. Listening to Aerosmith with another open carrier. No drama, yet!

Annnnnd so it starts! :)

They really did ask for it.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2014, 12:06:44 PM »
Annnnnd so it starts! :)

They really did ask for it.
The music isn't loud enough.

Xpiatio can it ever be loud enough?

bigt8261 I took it as an invitation and I didn't want to be rude and not accept it.

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2014, 12:31:15 PM »

bigt8261 I took it as an invitation and I didn't want to be rude and not accept it.

You guys crack me up!    :D

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2014, 06:52:21 PM »
Sitting in the public library in Hudsonville (Ottawa County Public building) open carrying. Listening to Aerosmith with another open carrier. No drama, yet!
I hope you called the PD, like Officer Friendly instructed in the take down tape, and told them you were going to be armed in their library.
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Offline Xpiatio

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2014, 05:30:04 PM »
Kinda off topic but someone mentioned that Kent County had long waits for CPL.  My wait wasn't that long.  I was expecting 3 months.  Submitted on Dec 26, 2013. CPL was issued (letter is dated) on Feb 7.   Was surprised to see it so soon.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2014, 05:40:23 PM »
Kinda off topic but someone mentioned that Kent County had long waits for CPL.  My wait wasn't that long.  I was expecting 3 months.  Submitted on Dec 26, 2013. CPL was issued (letter is dated) on Feb 7.   Was surprised to see it so soon.

Awesome Xpiatio, I am shocked it was that quick. There was a story on the local news about the clerks office being slow, perhaps that helped speed em up.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2014, 06:41:45 PM »
Kinda off topic but someone mentioned that Kent County had long waits for CPL.  My wait wasn't that long.  I was expecting 3 months.  Submitted on Dec 26, 2013. CPL was issued (letter is dated) on Feb 7.   Was surprised to see it so soon.

You would be able to purchase a silencer quicker than getting your CPL in Macomb county.