Grand Rapids Mayor Geroge Heartwell Doesn't Want To Be Desensitized

[Raggs]

Okay, I apologize to all the women I offended with my remark calling the esteemed mayor of Grand Rapids a weak woman.

[CV67PAT]

No need for the off color commentary about the mayor, as any comments made on this forum are able to be viewed by anyone and there is no sense in validating any negative perceptions about the open carry crowd.

I'm not a GR resident, nor am I going to be at the meeting tonight, but I do have a question that I would like to see posed to the mayor.  The mayor states he is frightened knowing that a resident in the meeting room has a gun, so I wonder if he would be less frightened if he didn't know who in the room may or may not have a gun.

This is an excellent question. It speaks directly to the purpose that our legislature regulates the concealed carry of firearms. So that we will know who is armed. Thus allowing us the opportunity to avoid such people , if we so desire.

[casper]

In the mayors remarks in paragraph 5, he said "civilian" with a gun. That statement may have been more accurate had he said "criminal" with a gun. The same goes for when he said "these people" instead of "these criminals". Those statements are exactly why we need to desensitize the public. According to him, civilians and people are criminals.

[gryphon]

I wonder if he would be less frightened if he didn't know who in the room may or may not have a gun.

I thought the same thing when I read his statements.

[bigt8261]

Comments from tonight.

Mayor Heartwell, I would like to take this opportunity to respond to some comments you made earlier today in relation to gun related violence and open carriers. I feel your excessive use of distortions, duplicitous fallacies and ad hominem underscores the lack of strength in what you are attempting to convey.

I have been working for quite some time now to educate, not only those in this chamber, but also the people of Michigan. Much of my focus has been on the lack of the ability of police to protect everyone. As you adequately pointed out, harm can come to someone even with a watchful officer standing ready in the room. Of course, once we expand on that notion we are led down the frightful path of understanding what would happen if a potential victim had to wait even mere seconds, or god forbid, minutes longer for said assistance.  If calling 911 and waiting for help to arrive is good enough for everyone else in the city, then why isn’t it good enough for this room?

Though I doubt you will admit it, you have already acknowledged the crime deterring effects of not just guns, but carrying them openly. This is after all, why the GRPD carries their guns openly, and why you have an officer openly carrying his firearm at this very meeting, is it not? As they say, actions speak louder than words and nothing detracts more from your notion of too many guns, than that officer sitting back there at your behest and thanks, with yet another openly carried gun.

Furthermore, in your statements, you pointed to a number of shootings that have occurred so far this year. However, what you failed to mention is that nearly all of them occurred in a “Gun Free Zone”, much like what you wish to turn these chambers into. You also failed to mention all of the lives saved by lawfully armed responders. No one watches a leopard chase down a gazelle and denies that the gazelle has the right to defend itself, but you would seemingly deny that same right to other human beings. You seem to think that the way to stop the leopard is to the cut the horns off the gazelle – that by somehow making it easier for the predator, the predator will somehow go away. This is folly. When you make it easier for the predator, you get more predators, as your “Gun Free Zones” have clearly demonstrated over the past few decades.

On the other hand, we have a very clear inverse trend of the number of guns and gun owners in this country compared to the number of violent firearm related incidents. You are correct that it is estimated that the number of firearms in this country is well over 300 million, but you left out that that number has nearly doubled in the past twenty years. Furthermore, you also left out the fact that related violence has decreased by over two thirds in that same time span.

I have said many times that the facts do not concern you, and once again you have proven me right. In referencing a recent road rage incident in Ionia, you attributed it to “lax and irresponsible gun laws”. The truth, if you had bothered to pay attention, is that one man defended his family from another. From someone who wrongfully had a CPL, because a prosecutor did not charge him properly, and the gun board let the man slide. Would you have preferred the defender leave his family to defend for themselves? When I sat in front of you in your office, I specifically mentioned proper prosecution using the laws we already have, yet you ignored me. I reached out to you with something I thought we could both agree on and it became abundantly clear that it was not public interest that you were putting first and foremost.

My message is and has been a message of education and understanding. Your message is and has been a message of confusion, fear and bigotry. I want more people to know our laws and understand them, where you want others to be confused about our laws and afraid of people such as me without first attempting to understand us. You tell me who the bully is and where the righteousness lies.

[Raggs]

Well done Tom

[Pond Scum]

Excellent job Tom! 

[gryphon]

Very well done, Tom.  Excellent as always.  You keep getting better and better, or maybe it's just more pointed as time goes on.  You've given Heartwell opportunity after opportunity, and he just keeps lying and obfuscating.  Good for calling him out on it.

Well done, sir, well done.

[hevymetal]

I wonder how the mayor would feel if 15-20 legally armed civilians attended his commission meetings as we did in Birmingham?

[karudin]

Tom, all I can say is well done. I admit I haven't keeping up on what mayors and politicians have been saying/doing in MI for long but your approach to them is awesome. Now only if a news outlet would report this type of stuff unbiased it would help the cause but I know I'm just dreaming now.

[bigt8261]

I wonder how the mayor would feel if 15-20 legally armed civilians attended his commission meetings as we did in Birmingham?

He didn't like it: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_16.html

[Xpiatio]

What we really need is a Grand Rapids resident to get up and talk. I think that person might carry more weight as a person who has the ability to vote for a commission of a ward and for the mayoral seat. 

Awesome message Tom, concise and definitely got your point across.  How did they react after you got up to talk?

[bigt8261]

Very well done, Tom.  Excellent as always.  You keep getting better and better, or maybe it's just more pointed as time goes on.  You've given Heartwell opportunity after opportunity, and he just keeps lying and obfuscating.  Good for calling him out on it.

Well done, sir, well done.

Thanks. There was sooo much more to say, but I only had 3min. I have floated the idea of a debate to a GR Press writer. Though I doubt anything will come of it, we will see.

[bigt8261]

What we really need is a Grand Rapids resident to get up and talk. I think that person might carry more weight as a person who has the ability to vote for a commission of a ward and for the mayoral seat.

+1000 here is the Commission meeting schedule http://grcity.us/city-clerk/Documents/City%20Commission%20Meetings%20Annual.pdf

Awesome message Tom, concise and definitely got your point across.  How did they react after you got up to talk?

One of the Commissioners said the Mayor was doing a find job.

[TucTom]

Tom, as others have said great job.

[karudin]

Ask and I shall receive I suppose.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/gun_advocate_responds_to_mayor.html#incart_river_default

Comments on M-Live never cease to amaze me. How can people be so willing to lay down any right to self defense just because it "scares" them or other people?

[gryphon]

"Next time Sam Jones Darling (an LGBT advocate who frequents commission meetings) is here, why don’t you ask him how righteous his detractors claim to be."

[bigt8261]

"Next time Sam Jones Darling (an LGBT advocate who frequents commission meetings) is here, why don’t you ask him how righteous his detractors claim to be."

Mr. Darling has attended many meetings in the past and has been well received by the Commission. The Commission is very liberal and thus very interested in what Mr. Darling has to say. I didn't write the comment out because I didn't plan on saying it until I was finished with my written comments and was about to walk away. My intent was to provide them with some perspective.

[SD40VE]

*starts the roaring chant*

tom....tom....tom....tom...tom....GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

[part deux]

Where are the gun stores, gun ranges, FFL dealers?  Those are the people that can make a real difference.