Author Topic: Dunham's.  (Read 10223 times)

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Offline casper

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Dunham's.
« on: February 23, 2014, 08:25:15 PM »
I was at Dunham's in the West shore mall and the guy behind the counter said he saw the security guard telling a guy he had to leave if he was OC'ing. If Dunham's says it's ok, do you have to abide by the mall guards demands ?

Offline TheQ

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Dunham's.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2014, 08:49:31 PM »
Who owns the property?

Does the lease allow the leasee to override the policies of the property holder in regards to Firearms?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline casper

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 02:48:03 PM »
I went in and talked to a manager and he told me it doesn't matter what the guard says. He told me to tell him to have a nice day.

Offline linux203

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 06:43:43 PM »
It does matter based on the answers to Q's questions.

Let's play this out.....

Guard tells you to leave.
Manager says you can stay.
Guard calls police.
Guard tells police you aren't allowed on the property with a firearm.
Manager tells police you were told you can stay.
Police ticket you for trespassing.

Your problem now.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline Jeff

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 07:25:13 PM »
It does matter based on the answers to Q's questions.

Let's play this out.....

Guard tells you to leave.
Manager says you can stay.
Guard calls police.
Guard tells police you aren't allowed on the property with a firearm.
Manager tells police you were told you can stay.
Police ticket you for CRIMINAL trespassing.

Your problem now.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 08:26:54 PM »
It does matter based on the answers to Q's questions.

Let's play this out.....

Guard tells you to leave.
Manager says you can stay.
Guard calls police.
Guard tells police you aren't allowed on the property with a firearm.
Manager tells police you were told you can stay.
Police ticket you for trespassing.

Your problem now.

If the same Manager is even working.

Offline casper

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 09:09:17 PM »
The manager said they own that store and they make the rules pertaining to open carry there. He said they welcome open carry. If he is wrong, where would I go to find out who I must comply with ? The mall or Dunham's ?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 09:14:44 PM by casper »

Offline Raggs

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 09:25:41 PM »
The mall itself has a no weapon policy, if dunhams rents from the mall which I would suspect I would think they would be under the mall rules.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2014, 09:35:28 PM »
If push came to shove (and it probably wouldn't, but if it did) it would depend on the lease the store had with the mall, and also whether all provisions of the lease were enforceable.  For example, my understanding is that typically stores must comply with certain requirements made by the mall owners, such as minimum open hours, etc.  Whether or not there is a firearms provision in the lease, it's possible that neither the manager nor the mall cops would know.  And if there is, it may not even be enforceable.

Just because a mall has a no firearms policy doesn't mean it extends to the stores themselves.  Obviously they allow Dunhams to sell guns, and it is my guess that they also allow customers to walk around with guns newly purchased from Dunhams, too.

Probably need an attorney familiar with tenancy laws and a copy of the lease to answer the question fully.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2014, 11:13:52 PM »
I can't see a big store that sells firearms do so if they had to follow a no guns policy.  I would personally have an issue being attached to a mall that said people can't have firearms in it knowing that I am selling firearms.  I guess I doubt that Dunhams would have it written into their contract that they are not allowed to have people in there with firearms.  But who knows, when profit is the driving force morals won't matter.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 07:21:59 AM »
I can't see a big store that sells firearms do so if they had to follow a no guns policy.  I would personally have an issue being attached to a mall that said people can't have firearms in it knowing that I am selling firearms.  I guess I doubt that Dunhams would have it written into their contract that they are not allowed to have people in there with firearms.  But who knows, when profit is the driving force morals won't matter.

I personally would carry and possibly leave when asked, never really know how I will react to something before hand. I doubt however that a manager would know the contract language between the Dunhams Corp and the Mall, except some of what Gryphon pointed out, minimum hours. I would suspect that there would be something about Dunham's following mall rules, but who knows.
I think if cops were called by security they would come and ticket the OCer or make the OCer leave.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 08:17:09 AM by Raggs »

Offline Jeff

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 11:23:23 AM »

I think if cops were called by security they would come and ticket the OCer or make the OCer leave.

I'm pretty sure they would arrest him for criminal trespass, if they can arrest someone with a good chance of it sticking they will do it to further their bullying career.

Offline Xpiatio

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 11:39:43 AM »
I'm pretty sure they would arrest him for criminal trespass, if they can arrest someone with a good chance of it sticking they will do it to further their bullying career.

Perhaps I would give them the benefit of the doubt since there is conflicting policy statements from the store's Manager and the mall's security.  I would take it that the police would give the OC'er the opportunity to leave.  OR perhaps its this whole "Confusion is a good thing" that people allow. 

Offline Jeff

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 12:32:38 PM »
I would take it that the police would give the OC'er the opportunity to leave.

We could only hope the officer's were in a good mood that day.

Offline SD40VE

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 01:01:10 PM »
officers..good day... are you mad?

Offline Jeff

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2014, 01:06:14 PM »
officers..good day... are you mad?

lol.  HEY officer bro, you mad bro?  you a madifcer? cmon bro, you mad?  officer Madbro ArestiCuffs, you mad?  Nah, Just playing, you mad tho.



"we had to take this guy in, he was clearly on some kind of heavy narcotics, he just kept asking if we were mad and calling us bro"

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2014, 04:49:25 PM »
The mall itself has a no weapon policy, if dunhams rents from the mall which I would suspect I would think they would be under the mall rules.
Where do you get that info from? Are you saying all malls or just this particular mall? I OC in twelve Oaks mall all the time and while security often watches me they have never asked me to leave. Sorry if I missed something I wanted to ask.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 09:51:45 AM »
Where do you get that info from? Are you saying all malls or just this particular mall? I OC in twelve Oaks mall all the time and while security often watches me they have never asked me to leave. Sorry if I missed something I wanted to ask.

http://www.shopwestshoremall.com/westshore-mall-code-of-conduct/

Says "Possession of a weapon, even if legally owned, is not allowed, except by law enforcement officers."

Some malls do allow legal carry, not this one.

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 10:00:06 AM »
http://www.shopwestshoremall.com/westshore-mall-code-of-conduct/

Says "Possession of a weapon, even if legally owned, is not allowed, except by law enforcement officers."

Some malls do allow legal carry, not this one.
Raggs thanks for sharing this link with me. I will search for the 12 Oaks Mall code of conduct or maybe just keep OC'ing and play like I didnt know and if they ask me to leave I will leave.

Offline Raggs

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 10:08:27 AM »
Raggs thanks for sharing this link with me. I will search for the 12 Oaks Mall code of conduct or maybe just keep OC'ing and play like I didnt know and if they ask me to leave I will leave.

Don't look to hard, I never look at places I actually frequent. If they are posted I walk. If they are not I assume that they are ok with carry, if I am asked to leave, I walk.

Offline karudin

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 10:21:18 AM »
Don't look to hard, I never look at places I actually frequent. If they are posted I walk. If they are not I assume that they are ok with carry, if I am asked to leave, I walk.

I know I used to try looking for signs or anything but figured if they are going to make me look for it they aren't too worried about keeping me out, so I just go in and go about my business. So far no problems, but if I do end up having a problem my wife knows we'll be walking right out the door and not coming back. She fought me on that policy at first but she has completely come around with me carrying and not shopping at places that won't allow me to carry.

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 02:20:44 PM »
Dumb-Hams hires some of the stupidest people to work in their stores, in my experience. I have met assistant  french fry dunkers at McDonald's that could run mental laps around most of those employed by Dumb-Hams. :o
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 03:15:34 PM »
Dumb-Hams hires some of the stupidest people to work in their stores, in my experience. I have met assistant  french fry dunkers at McDonald's that could run mental laps around most of those employed by Dumb-Hams. :o
A Tad bit rude to the guy who started this thread don't ya think? Like spicoli once said "hey bud... What's yur problem"?

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 03:17:25 PM »
Dumb-Hams hires some of the stupidest people to work in their stores, in my experience. I have met assistant  french fry dunkers at McDonald's that could run mental laps around most of those employed by Dumb-Hams. :o
Sorry I was refering to this post Lol

http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3787.0.html

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2014, 03:50:00 PM »
Sorry I was refering to this post Lol

http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3787.0.html


Casper doesn't work at Dunham's. The person in the other thread does...so what? I didn't say ALL people who work there are retarded, just some. This is based on my experiences over the years. I was once told by a pimply faced idiot I needed to fill out a 4473 for a bb rifle I was buying as a gift for my nephew. After waiting for 15 minutes for a manager it was cleared up. Seems "Skippy" thought anything that said gun or rifle needed a 4473. The manager said sorry and that the kid was just filling in for a employee who called off, and he didn't usually work the sporting goods counter.

I stopped shopping there years ago because of incidents like that. YMMV.
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline Jeff

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Re: Re: Dunham's.
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2014, 04:17:12 PM »

The manager said sorry and that the kid was just filling in for a employee who called off, and he didn't usually work the sporting goods counter.


He must be caned.  With a cane.