Author Topic: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list  (Read 10669 times)

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Offline gryphon

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Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« on: March 15, 2014, 12:13:47 PM »
OCEANSIDE, Calif. – The owner of an Oceanside store that sells various gun parts to build a rifle from scratch refused to turn over his customer list to federal agents.

Dimitrios Karras, owner of Ares Armor, said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were investigating their business, not for what they sell, but for the people who purchase their products.

Karras said the ATF threatened to shutter their business if they didn’t hand over the names of 5,000 customers who have purchased an 80 percent lower receiver (the base) for building an AR-15.

It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications. The base is not considered a firearm if it’s sold separately.

A manufacturer made an 80 percent receiver in plastic with a different material and colors which show exactly where the customer can drill making it easier and cheaper to build. The ATF said it is illegal.

The ATF sent stores, including Ares Armor, letters demanding they turn over the products and names of customers who purchased them.

“They said either give us these 5000 names or we are coming in and taking pretty much anything – which is a huge privacy concern and something we are not willing to do,” said Karras.

http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/

Former U.S. Marine Dmitrio Karras has defied the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives demands that he turn over his private client list or face a raid where they will seize whatever they want and shut his business down.

The CEO of Ares Armor in National City, California claims that his business isn’t actually under investigation but his customers are, and that’s why he’s taking a stand according to KSWB-TV.

Ares Armor sells what are called “80% lower receivers” for AR-15′s.

His store is one of several that have received letters from the ATF regarding the sale of the lower receivers, however Karras acted ahead of the agency.

He filed a restraining order against the bureau knowing that they were coming. Now they aren’t allowed near his property and can’t take the items which are essential for him to stay in business.

http://tellmenow.com/2014/03/video-marine-halts-atf-raid-of-his-gun-shop-atf-wants-client-list/
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 12:20:14 PM by gryphon »

Offline Jeff

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 04:06:06 PM »
So many people think that they can just do this and it's not a problem, they are so out of control it's not funny.  But what is funny is  that there was a restraining order filed. :)

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 05:52:00 PM »
Well, that didn't last long.  ATF defied the restraining order and just raided Ares Armor.


Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 06:05:54 PM »
I wonder how the judge feels that signed the restraining order??

Offline TheQ

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Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 06:08:22 PM »
Well, that didn't last long.  ATF defied the restraining order and just raided Ares Armor.



Was it a federal judge or a state judge? They will define a state judge very easily. For that matter, they would defy a federal one too.

I'd like to see the county sheriffs, that are always talking about defending the Constitution, show up that will be situations and force the agents out of the store by force. You know -- like Mike Raines.

Oh...wait. Mike is all talk.
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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 07:58:43 PM »
Judges, smudges. They don't have any authority. Well, except they do over we the subjects.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2014, 08:41:39 PM »
Everything our government does like this always reminds me of star wars where Gunray has been told do something that isn't legal and he says.  "my lord, is that... legal?"...then palpatine says "I WILL MAKE IT LEGAL" 

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 09:03:12 AM »
More video of ATF raid.  You can see them pry the door open.


Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 01:59:30 PM »
Update

Trickery, trickery.

It appears that despite the judge granting the TRO on Wednesday, yesterday the ATF went to the judge ex parte (meaning without the other side, in this case Ares, being present), and got a “clarification” of the prior TRO. This “clarification” seems to give them the green light to apply for a “lawful search”.

IMHO, in order to have a change between Wednesday when the original TRO was granted, the ATF would have had to have alleged Ares was about to get rid of records and that they, the ATF had emergent reasons for going in now rather than waiting till the full hearing that was scheduled for March 20.

Update:

Here are the prosecutor’s allegations behind the ex parte allegation.

-They materially misrepresent the lower receivers as “firearms”.
-they essentially argue “how dare Ares use the law to get a TRO against us”, that somehow that was a “trick” on Ares part not to provide the “firearms” as per agreement. But if they had the TRO, they were not required to turn over the weapons.

EX PARTE APPLICATION FOR ORDER
DOJ Response Ares Armor

ORDER
Order Clarifying TRO Ares Armor

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 04:34:41 PM »
ATF sledgehammering the safe.


Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 06:46:56 PM »
update: The ATF did execute a search warrant against all of our buildings today. None of our employees have been detained or arrested. We will be open for business tomorrow. We will be back up and shipping out orders on Monday. We wholeheartedly believe that they are WRONG in their actions and we will be relentlessly pursuing remedy through the courts. Quote from an ATF Agent during the raid "searching is fun! paper work sucks." Maybe the ATF thinks the Constitution is part of that paper work that sucks... Despicable behavior on their part. This is just the beginning! Thank you all for the support! -Dimitrios Karras, CEO



https://www.facebook.com/AresArmor/posts/800287273334172?stream_ref=10

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 10:41:40 AM »
This doesn't look good:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-search-warrant-sheds-light-reason-atf-raid/

It looks like two issues: someone may have been manufacturing a lower from the 80% for money in the back room (someone employed an illegal Mexican immigrant who’s also a felon to assist customers in manufacturing firearms on the business’s premises), and also the ATF is saying that ARES manufactured complete or nearly complete lowers, then "unmanufactured" them by filling in the holes.  That may or may not fly.  If not, they sold lowers which should be "firearms" without the proper paperwork.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 11:01:32 AM »
This doesn't look good:
...

I would concur.  The lawyers will have fun with this one.  Especially Felon "Emiliano" working in the back room -- possessing a "firearm" as he finished the lower.

"Emiliano's" original crime was probably victimless (unlawful immigration, drug trafficking).  What a mess....*sighs*

Oh to be a lawyer that is going to make good $ on this one....
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Offline part deux

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2014, 12:30:11 PM »
Bad decision making on the part of Ares may completely take down the company in the process.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 01:05:11 PM »
11 million illegal aliens are in this country and INS can't find any of them to deport. But ATF can find one hidden in the back of some obscure store, that isn't a gun dealer, making semi-illegal "firearms."
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Offline TheQ

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Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2014, 01:16:03 PM »

11 million illegal aliens are in this country and INS can't find any of them to deport. But ATF can find one hidden in the back of some obscure store, that isn't a gun dealer, making semi-illegal "firearms."

Smell a rat?
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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2014, 01:43:16 PM »
Smell a rat?
Yes I do.
Maybe the UPS driver.
That's what the source was to get the warrants for Waco.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2014, 04:58:42 PM »
Were they not talking about another company most of the article and not ARES?

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2014, 05:28:17 PM »
Were they not talking about another company most of the article and not ARES?
Jeff, there are actually three companies involved in this mess: LCG AR Part and Custom Accessories, who may be completing 80% lowers for money, thus manufacturing a regulated firearm part for others, ARES who is selling the lowers and may have let LCG do their work in the ARES store, and the company that made the lowers in the first place, EP Armory.  It appears that the ATF's position is that the lower was manufactured, then "unmanufactured," that is, EP Armory filled in areas with a different color material to make it easier to modify.  But once you make a gun, you can't "unmake" it.  So...if what ATF says is accurate, all three companies may be doing something illegal.  If the lower really isn't a non-firearm, EP Armory and ARES is violating the law.  But if it is, then LCG is violating the law.  Here's some more detail on the lower business:

+++++

At the moment, we still have no idea what exactly the ATF is investigating Ares Armor for. Speculation is rampant, and the two main competing theories are that it either has something to do with the EP Armory polymer 80% lower receivers, or a suspicion that Ares Armor is “helping” people manufacture complete firearms without the proper license and paperwork. It may very well be the latter, since the judicial system has granted Ares Armor a restraining order against the ATF keeping them out of their hair for investigations related to the polymer lower receivers and the ATF claims their raid was on an unrelated charge. But just for giggles, let’s look at the situation surrounding those lowers and why the ATF might be interested.


Ares Armor is a distributor of EP Armory’s polymer 80% lower receivers. The claim to fame for these models is that the lower receivers are two different colors — one color for the receiver itself, and a completely different color for the parts that need to be milled out to complete the gun. It’s the equivalent of a “paint by numbers” approach to firearms manufacturing, making the process nearly idiot-proof.

The problem is the definition of an “80% lower.” The appeal of the 80% lower receiver is that it is legally just a chunk of metal and not a firearm, so it skirts nearly all of the gun laws in the United States right up until the point where someone drills out all the required parts and assembles their own gun. In order to maintain that status, the lower needs to be like a block of marble in an artists’ studio: just raw material with the finished product still needing to be chiseled out. According to the ATF’s “once a gun always a gun” doctrine, the instant the lower is milled out and completed it’s officially a firearm and subject to all of the applicable laws. Even if you go back and fill in the relevant sections, it’s still a gun that you just manufactured and must be treated as such.

The question with this specific lower becomes one of the chicken and the egg. The lower, as sold, has all the right parts filled in. But when it was manufactured, was it actually first made as a “proper” complete firearm and then had the relevant parts filled in, or was it manufactured some other way that would keep the ATF agents happy that it really never was “complete” at any point in its construction?

When Ares Armor applied for and was granted their restraining order, they included a note from EP Armory’s head honcho stating that the fabrication process was in compliance with the ATF’s instructions on the matter and 100% legal. I have contacted EP Armory to get a more detailed overview of how their manufacturing process works, but they haven’t returned my call. I get the feeling that they’re a little busy at the moment, having just been raided themselves. The folks at Ares Armor helpfully took a few minutes to talk to me, but all they could do was point me at the EP Armory website for more information — and there doesn’t seem to be anything helpful over there.

The situation is still developing, and as we get more information we’ll let you know. But the facts at the moment are this:

  • Ares Armor sought and was issued a restraining order against the ATF to keep them out of their store in relation to this specific 80% polymer lower.
  • Ares Armor is a distributor of EP Armory’s product, not a manufacturer.
  • EP Armory was raided by the ATF over this issue, and no additional information is available about the findings in that case.
  • The ATF claims the raid on Ares Armor was about an unrelated investigation, hinting at the manufacturing kerfuffle that I discussed this morning.

So, in short, clear as mud as to what’s really going on. Stay tuned.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-update-skinny-polymer-80-lower-receivers/

Offline Jeff

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2014, 05:35:11 PM »
I wonder if it would be legal to drill one hole at a time, then fill it thus never actually being a complete lower.  Never drilling all holes at once, just one then fill, then the next and so on.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 09:40:52 PM »
UPDATE

Things are much clearer now.  The ATF believes the lowers are illegal because the fire control cavity is, indeed, formed during the manufacturing process. The order in which this happens doesn’t matter.

80% lower receivers aren’t considered firearms as long as insufficient manufacturing processes have been completed to turn it into a functioning firearm. The ATF has stated an opinion on exactly when that is in the process of making an AR-15. The general rule of thumb is that the point at which the fire control cavity is milled out is when the hunk of metal becomes a gun.

EP Armory believed that they could make a polymer lower that was easier for people to finish by making the fire control area a different color plastic. It would eliminate the need for precise machining, letting buyers just drill it out instead of painstakingly milling and using a jig. In order to stay in the clear in regards to the 80% requirement, they believed that by molding the fire control area first (something they referred to as a “biscuit”) and then molding the receiver around that biscuit, that they could produce an 80% receiver that included the helpful, differently colored guide.

Their logic was that since the plug was constructed first and the lower molded around it, then at no point was that fire control cavity “created” — it was always filled with material.

The ATF disagreed.








Basically what this means is that the ATF claims Ares Armor was selling "firearms" without NICS checks and logging them, i.e., illegally.  I don't even know if Ares is an FFL.  I don't think so.  Unless Areas can defend themselves in court to a judge's satisfaction, it won't end well.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:46:16 PM by gryphon »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2014, 10:34:55 PM »
This "indexing" was mentioned in other reports way early on. I agree. it is not going to end well.
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Offline bigt8261

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2014, 10:58:46 PM »
They kept calling the biscuit a "cavity". I think they need to look up the definition of cavity.

Webster - "an unfilled space within a mass; especially :  a hollowed-out space "

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2014, 11:06:46 PM »
I think the ATF is nuts.  At first they thought a cavity was created, then backfilled.  When shown that was not the case, they admitted their analysis was wrong but that it didn't matter because the biscuit created the cavity.  By definition, a cavity is the absence of material.  The ATF claims that the biscuit creates a cavity.  It does no such thing as a cavity was never formed.  But then they also state that the biscuit acts as a guide or “index” to tell you when to stop milling, so that's bad as well!  If the courts don't back us up on the cavity thing we're still covered by the indexing thing!  And, of course, indexing on the holes.  Can't centerpunch or divot out a location to drill, that's indexing, but you can mark it with a pen or pencil.  Bah.  Jigs are allowable to be used to aid in precise drill location, what's the difference?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:34:11 PM by gryphon »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2014, 11:09:51 PM »
I think the ATF is nuts.  By definition, a cavity is the absence of material.  The ATF claims that the biscuit creates a cavity.  It does no such thing as a cavity was never formed.  However, the indexing thing on where to drill the holes, though arbitrary, is more legit.  Can't centerpunch or divot out a location to drill, that's indexing, but you can mark it with a pen or pencil.  Bah.  Jigs are allowable to be used to aid in precise drill location, what's the difference?
It's all a question of how easy it is to complete. PfffT!
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Offline bigt8261

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 10:56:06 AM »
Yeah, I'm not sure about the indexing stuff. That's the part that worries me. The cavity portion is BS though.

Offline Scott Leyder

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2014, 01:39:19 PM »
My defense would be to take one of the lowers and a bullet, toss it to the defense and say shoot me with it right now.

Offline gryphon

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Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2014, 02:35:04 PM »
Interesting update on new 1A lawsuit from Ares Armor.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/robert-farago/ares-armor-ceo-sues-san-diego-sheriffs-dept-for-facebook-censorship/

I'd be upset if somebody with a Feral Bureau of Instigation/Incineration history ran for sheriff in my county.
I'd go ballistic if he had a supervisory connection to Waco, Ruby Ridge or the Huttaree mess.
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