Author Topic: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list  (Read 10677 times)

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Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 09:40:52 PM »
UPDATE

Things are much clearer now.  The ATF believes the lowers are illegal because the fire control cavity is, indeed, formed during the manufacturing process. The order in which this happens doesn’t matter.

80% lower receivers aren’t considered firearms as long as insufficient manufacturing processes have been completed to turn it into a functioning firearm. The ATF has stated an opinion on exactly when that is in the process of making an AR-15. The general rule of thumb is that the point at which the fire control cavity is milled out is when the hunk of metal becomes a gun.

EP Armory believed that they could make a polymer lower that was easier for people to finish by making the fire control area a different color plastic. It would eliminate the need for precise machining, letting buyers just drill it out instead of painstakingly milling and using a jig. In order to stay in the clear in regards to the 80% requirement, they believed that by molding the fire control area first (something they referred to as a “biscuit”) and then molding the receiver around that biscuit, that they could produce an 80% receiver that included the helpful, differently colored guide.

Their logic was that since the plug was constructed first and the lower molded around it, then at no point was that fire control cavity “created” — it was always filled with material.

The ATF disagreed.








Basically what this means is that the ATF claims Ares Armor was selling "firearms" without NICS checks and logging them, i.e., illegally.  I don't even know if Ares is an FFL.  I don't think so.  Unless Areas can defend themselves in court to a judge's satisfaction, it won't end well.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:46:16 PM by gryphon »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2014, 10:34:55 PM »
This "indexing" was mentioned in other reports way early on. I agree. it is not going to end well.
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Offline bigt8261

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2014, 10:58:46 PM »
They kept calling the biscuit a "cavity". I think they need to look up the definition of cavity.

Webster - "an unfilled space within a mass; especially :  a hollowed-out space "

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2014, 11:06:46 PM »
I think the ATF is nuts.  At first they thought a cavity was created, then backfilled.  When shown that was not the case, they admitted their analysis was wrong but that it didn't matter because the biscuit created the cavity.  By definition, a cavity is the absence of material.  The ATF claims that the biscuit creates a cavity.  It does no such thing as a cavity was never formed.  But then they also state that the biscuit acts as a guide or “index” to tell you when to stop milling, so that's bad as well!  If the courts don't back us up on the cavity thing we're still covered by the indexing thing!  And, of course, indexing on the holes.  Can't centerpunch or divot out a location to drill, that's indexing, but you can mark it with a pen or pencil.  Bah.  Jigs are allowable to be used to aid in precise drill location, what's the difference?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:34:11 PM by gryphon »

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2014, 11:09:51 PM »
I think the ATF is nuts.  By definition, a cavity is the absence of material.  The ATF claims that the biscuit creates a cavity.  It does no such thing as a cavity was never formed.  However, the indexing thing on where to drill the holes, though arbitrary, is more legit.  Can't centerpunch or divot out a location to drill, that's indexing, but you can mark it with a pen or pencil.  Bah.  Jigs are allowable to be used to aid in precise drill location, what's the difference?
It's all a question of how easy it is to complete. PfffT!
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Offline bigt8261

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 10:56:06 AM »
Yeah, I'm not sure about the indexing stuff. That's the part that worries me. The cavity portion is BS though.

Offline Scott Leyder

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2014, 01:39:19 PM »
My defense would be to take one of the lowers and a bullet, toss it to the defense and say shoot me with it right now.

Offline gryphon

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Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2014, 02:35:04 PM »
Interesting update on new 1A lawsuit from Ares Armor.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/robert-farago/ares-armor-ceo-sues-san-diego-sheriffs-dept-for-facebook-censorship/

I'd be upset if somebody with a Feral Bureau of Instigation/Incineration history ran for sheriff in my county.
I'd go ballistic if he had a supervisory connection to Waco, Ruby Ridge or the Huttaree mess.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?