Author Topic: Enforcing the Second Amendment  (Read 11018 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Enforcing the Second Amendment
« on: March 31, 2014, 01:40:02 PM »
What if the Second Amendment had a IIA clause, and a IIB clause? What if the Constitution looked like this?

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/62087

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1482
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 02:10:08 PM »
It just like adding teeth to preemption. I wish Michigan's preemption had teeth. If only someone were working on that.  ;)

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 02:45:27 PM »
Here's the problem with this: it requires government elected officials to hold other elected officials accountable. A healthy question to ask when you see a law that says "a public official SHALL":

And if they don't?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline jgillmanjr

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 654
    • Freedom Forged Security Consulting
  • First Name (Displayed): Jason
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 02:49:08 PM »
Here's the problem with this: it requires government elected officials to hold other elected officials accountable. A healthy question to ask when you see a law that says "a public official SHALL":

And if they don't?
I've always thought that there should be an independent elected attorney that has the authority to prosecute these kind of things. That way it's not an issue of the county prosecutors "playing nice".
IT Director
Deputy Treasurer
Legislative Aide

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 05:31:31 PM »

I've always thought that there should be an independent elected attorney that has the authority to prosecute these kind of things. That way it's not an issue of the county prosecutors "playing nice".

Great -- another elected official. I'm sure THAT will solve the problem. NOT!

Our system was designed such that Congress, The Courts, and the Executive would keep each other in check. How has that worked?

And you think adding someone else to the government payroll will fix it?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline jgillmanjr

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 654
    • Freedom Forged Security Consulting
  • First Name (Displayed): Jason
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2014, 07:42:51 PM »
Great -- another elected official. I'm sure THAT will solve the problem. NOT!

Our system was designed such that Congress, The Courts, and the Executive would keep each other in check. How has that worked?

And you think adding someone else to the government payroll will fix it?

Good point. I've got another idea - just need to flesh it out more..
IT Director
Deputy Treasurer
Legislative Aide

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2014, 08:39:18 PM »
There is really only one way I know of to reliably hold government agents and elected representatives accountable for their actions, and that is to have extensive polygraph testing at least twice a year, for everyone, period. Routine psych tests seem like a pretty good idea too. Fail either and you're out, no ifs ands or buts. This could be done on a full spectrum, make sure teachers are doing their jobs, cops aren't violating any oaths, law makers aren't treasonously banning guns while feloniously selling them, etc...

Sure, that would unfairly take out some people who would otherwise do a good job, but government jobs are a privilege, not a right.

Offline TexasSupporter

  • Posts: 94
  • First Name (Displayed): James
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 08:59:35 PM »
I love the idea.  I think its a good analysis of how things have gotten so out of control. 

Here's what I really liked in that article, when it uncovered this gem:

Check out Title 18, USC, Section 241- Conspiracy Against Rights. Here is the important language of this law:
“This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same). Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to ten years, or both.”

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 10:53:53 PM »

There is really only one way I know of to reliably hold government agents and elected representatives accountable for their actions, and that is to have extensive polygraph testing at least twice a year, for everyone, period. Routine psych tests seem like a pretty good idea too. Fail either and you're out, no ifs ands or buts. This could be done on a full spectrum, make sure teachers are doing their jobs, cops aren't violating any oaths, law makers aren't treasonously banning guns while feloniously selling them, etc...

Sure, that would unfairly take out some people who would otherwise do a good job, but government jobs are a privilege, not a right.

Great. Now we have government/elected shrinks too?!?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 11:19:54 PM »
There already are, among other things weeding out crazies from becoming cops, and as many of us have found "in the field" even that!isn't always enough. But it's certainly better than not doing it.

Why not give them some some overtime and get them to pluck crooked law makers and others  out of office? With modern polygraph technology where it is, I have a hard time believing it would make things worse.


Offline CV67PAT

  • MOC Charter Member
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 11:46:42 PM »
There already are, among other things weeding out crazies from becoming cops, and as many of us have found "in the field" even that!isn't always enough. But it's certainly better than not doing it.

Why not give them some some overtime and get them to pluck crooked law makers and others  out of office? With modern polygraph technology where it is, I have a hard time believing it would make things worse.

This is actually a great idea. There could be a federal agency that conducts the polygraphs withing the Department of Justice. They have a complete mobile force or polygraph operators and analysts that would be responsible for polygraphing every single state, local, and federal police officer. They would also polygraph every teacher, school administrator, school board member, and school janitor. Congressmen, senators, their staff members and liaisons would be analyzed by this agency also, as would each and every of their state counterparts. And don't forget the secretary of state, department of motor vehicles, agriculture departments, department of transportation, and prison guards.

And judges. Supreme court justices. State supreme court justices. Their staffs. Federal judges. State judges. Dog catchers. Court referees. Magistrates. Court clerks, court jesters, and court reporters should all be tested too.

And the TSA. God knows those bastards make our life miserable when ever we want to fly somewhere. We have to strip half naked while they look through our luggage. Every single one of them should have to be polygraphed in their underwear while standing in line.

And then there are the child protective services caseworker that try to take kids away from parents all the time just because some neighbor has a gripe.

Then immediately the semi-annual polygraph a caseworker psychiatrist form the Department of Health and Human Services will conduct a psychiatric evaluation of all of the aforementioned people.

And we can have all done for free under the Affordable Health Care Act. It really shouldn't take anymore than 2 or 3 million federal agents to implement this program.

Yeah I think it's a great idea. Let's get it going. And anyone that opposes it will automatically be deemed as being a traitor. And put in prison. Of course all othe prison guards will have to undergo extra scrutiny and evaluation.
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline TucTom

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2014, 08:57:09 AM »
Pat, sounds like a job with a lot of OT. Can I apply, or would I have to take a polygraph test first?

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2014, 09:18:45 AM »
This is actually a great idea. There could be a federal agency that conducts the polygraphs withing the Department of Justice. They have a complete mobile force or polygraph operators and analysts that would be responsible for polygraphing every single state, local, and federal police officer. They would also polygraph every teacher, school administrator, school board member, and school janitor. Congressmen, senators, their staff members and liaisons would be analyzed by this agency also, as would each and every of their state counterparts. And don't forget the secretary of state, department of motor vehicles, agriculture departments, department of transportation, and prison guards.

And judges. Supreme court justices. State supreme court justices. Their staffs. Federal judges. State judges. Dog catchers. Court referees. Magistrates. Court clerks, court jesters, and court reporters should all be tested too.

And the TSA. God knows those bastards make our life miserable when ever we want to fly somewhere. We have to strip half naked while they look through our luggage. Every single one of them should have to be polygraphed in their underwear while standing in line.

And then there are the child protective services caseworker that try to take kids away from parents all the time just because some neighbor has a gripe.

Then immediately the semi-annual polygraph a caseworker psychiatrist form the Department of Health and Human Services will conduct a psychiatric evaluation of all of the aforementioned people.

And we can have all done for free under the Affordable Health Care Act. It really shouldn't take anymore than 2 or 3 million federal agents to implement this program.

Yeah I think it's a great idea. Let's get it going. And anyone that opposes it will automatically be deemed as being a traitor. And put in prison. Of course all othe prison guards will have to undergo extra scrutiny and evaluation.


LOL

I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 11:39:59 AM »
Pat V Glen now showing in the Ammo Dump....

http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3978.0.html
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1482
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 01:36:16 PM »
According to this there are about 22 million government workers.

At two polygraph tests per year, that would be 44,000,000 tests to be conducted yearly.

Assuming an extensive polygraph test could be administered (including filing the necessary paperwork) at a rate of 1 per hour, or 8 per day, it would take one person 5,500,000 days to conduct all of the tests, or a bit over 15,000 years.

Assuming 5 days of work per week and 50 weeks of work per year (2 weeks of vacation) 1 tester could effectively conduct (8 * 5 * 50) 2000 tests per year. Thus it would take (44 mil / 2000) about 22,000 testers to conduct all of the necessary tests (assuming the testers are not tested themselves).

Assuming a modest governmental benefit package of 50k per year, those 22,000 testers would cost roughly 1.1 Billion dollars per year.

However, once we account for government waste, overpayment and rising pay scales and benefits, my guess is by year 5 the price tag should be somewhere around 30-50 billion per year. :shoot-self:

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 01:41:11 PM »
....some would say that's money well spent!

And just think: some lowly, disgruntled shrink who didn't get the pay raise he wanted could fire the President!
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1482
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2014, 01:43:04 PM »
Keep in mind those were very low numbers and they didn't include expenses.

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2014, 01:56:15 PM »
The scope of doing everyone is indeed a very good point. I am however convinced the idea is sound, at least in terms of polygraphing people with very important/sensitive jobs, as well as if nothing else at random, maybe through a lottery system, polygraphing others who work for the government. Putting someone in fear of repercussions for violating the rules is the only way restrictive rules can be enforced.

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2014, 01:57:25 PM »

The scope of doing everyone is indeed a very good point. I am however convinced the idea is sound, at least in terms of polygraphing people with very important/sensitive jobs, as well as if nothing else at random, maybe through a lottery system, polygraphing others who work for the government. Putting someone in fear of repercussions for violating the rules is the only way restrictive rules can be enforced.

But who will make the call if someone violated the rules or not? Another government official?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2014, 02:03:33 PM »
I think my idea, flawed though it is as you guys have pointed out, is pretty clear. Fail a polygraph exam to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to, no government job. If it works in most states for cops, it can certainly work for others.

Offline CV67PAT

  • MOC Charter Member
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2014, 02:12:09 PM »
I think my idea, flawed though it is as you guys have pointed out, is pretty clear. Fail a polygraph exam to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to, no government job. If it works in most states for cops, it can certainly work for others.
You have and idea. You admit it's flawed. Any other clearly flawed ideas?
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2014, 02:19:20 PM »
You have and idea. You admit it's flawed. Any other clearly flawed ideas?

Want to comment on the idea in a limited context, rather than the numbers being off if done too widely? Or is it just more fun to troll me?

Offline SD40VE

  • SE Region Posse
  • Posts: 996
  • New Haven, Macomb County
  • First Name (Displayed): Bradley
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2014, 03:33:46 PM »
I think my idea, flawed though it is as you guys have pointed out, is pretty clear. Fail a polygraph exam to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to, no government job. If it works in most states for cops, it can certainly work for others.

I think my idea, majorly flawed and borderline retarded though it is as you guys have pointed out, is pretty clear. Fail a polygraph exam to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to, no government job. If it works in most states for cops, it can certainly work for others.

FIFY

Offline TucTom

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2014, 03:40:31 PM »
According to this there are about 22 million government workers.

At two polygraph tests per year, that would be 44,000,000 tests to be conducted yearly.

Assuming an extensive polygraph test could be administered (including filing the necessary paperwork) at a rate of 1 per hour, or 8 per day, it would take one person 5,500,000 days to conduct all of the tests, or a bit over 15,000 years.

Assuming 5 days of work per week and 50 weeks of work per year (2 weeks of vacation) 1 tester could effectively conduct (8 * 5 * 50) 2000 tests per year. Thus it would take (44 mil / 2000) about 22,000 testers to conduct all of the necessary tests (assuming the testers are not tested themselves).

Assuming a modest governmental benefit package of 50k per year, those 22,000 testers would cost roughly 1.1 Billion dollars per year.

However, once we account for government waste, overpayment and rising pay scales and benefits, my guess is by year 5 the price tag should be somewhere around 30-50 billion per year. :shoot-self:

On second thought, I don't want the job.

Offline m.marino

  • Posts: 113
  • First Name (Displayed): Michael
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2014, 05:45:07 PM »
There are options some of them tried in US history. One option for dealing with those who serve the public is taking notes from the Greek Dracos; but not many modern folks like how he dealt with corruption. Establishing unpaid county grand juries is another option (though again that can be elected or be a required rota of the citizens in an area). The hard part is that good governance starts with an active citizenry that is not afraid to call a spade a spade. Than again, bringing back dueling could help a bit and properly using the laws that are on the books also helps. I mean mis-use of elected or public office for agendas contrary to the duties of said office are still sedition, and that road tends to lead folks towards trying to usurp the authority as the people have it. According to the constitution there are two options down that road, one involves fine hand laid manila.

Which is why the documents of the US are interesting in that they build upon one another and require the citizen to be responsible of themselves and their community. Anyone start talking to other folks and groups on how to go to the next step on this well done year could be? Snyder may have the money for the primary; but grassroots and modern media as well as feet on the street getting a message out can very much change an outcome. Just try to get rid of the electronic ballot machines. They are not for the benefit of the voter, trust me.     -Michael
Tuebor Libertatus

Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2014, 07:13:45 PM »
President Obama just failed the lie detector test, now what?

Offline Rustykeys

  • Posts: 71
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 11:38:56 PM »
We the people have a right to a grand jury, meaning we can have grand jury remove elected political officials from office. It is our right to do so and we do not have to rely on bought and paid for political officials to do this for us. We all know how that would go. When we the people believe our elected officials have failed us we can move on it with a Grand Jury to have the official removed from office.

"Thus, the Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, gives rise to a fourth branch of government, the grand jury. We the people have been charged with oversight of the government in our roles as grand jurors. Yet, we have lost this right and the power it grants us. We wring our hands and lament, “What can we do? There is no hope,” when the answer lies right before our eyes.

At this critical time in American history, we must, for the protection of our constitutional republic, take back our power and act as powerful as the other three branches of government.

The law is on our side. We the people have the right and power under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to charge this government with crimes by returning presentments – regardless of whether the U. S. Attorneys or the federal judges agree with us. As the U. S. Supreme Court has so brilliantly stated, we are the “buffer between the Government and the people.”

We don’t have to ask the other three government branches’ permission to rein in the government – such will never come anyway – but need merely to exercise our “lost right” of the people’s grand jury, and then take back our government from its corporate facades and those employees, a.k.a. agents, who do their bidding.

All that’s wanting is persistence and determination. The Founders ventured their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to win freedom for themselves and their posterity. Should we risk any less? " (Sullivan).

Sullivan, Donald Lt. Colonel (Ret) "Lost Rights, Part 9: Right to a Grand Jury (the Fourth Branch of Government)" http://firstfreedom.net/2.htm .
 
“We must hang together, gentlemen…else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.”
 
– Benjamin Franklin

A right not exercised is a right lost.

Offline Michigander

  • Posts: 57
Re: Enforcing the Second Amendment
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 11:51:09 PM »
I think my idea, majorly flawed and borderline retarded though it is as you guys have pointed out, is pretty clear. Fail a polygraph exam to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to, no government job. If it works in most states for cops, it can certainly work for others.

FIFY

If you have a better idea, the cordial thing would be to propose it, rather than trash talk me for whatever reason you chose to do so.