Author Topic: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.  (Read 9404 times)

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Offline Jeff

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« on: April 09, 2014, 08:10:34 AM »
Warning, your blood pressure might skyrocket.


Offline TheQ

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 09:08:08 AM »
Pea shooter...
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 09:49:26 AM »
I've seen it.  I disagree.  So do a lot of other people.  Stores can't keep Five-seveNs or PS90's on the shelf (unless they overprice them).  And there are good reasons why.  Ballistics.  Just because someone posts popular videos on youtube doesn't mean they are experts on, well, anything.  Look at the ballistic testing that's been done and you will likely be amazed.  And I don't just mean ballistics gel or clay (although those are eye-opening as well).  I mean pigs and other animals.  But let me repost something a "real" expert wrote a while back.

+++++

I see a lot of links to "experts" who profess to know what is an effective round, and so, sitting here it suddenly dawned on me that "I" am an expert as well! I've been a CCRN for 20 years. I've worked in some of the "busiest" Level One Trauma centers as well as some of the equally "busy" backwater county Emergency Rooms and seen my share of GSW's (gunshot wounds) come through the door so and I suspect I have far more REAL experience with what bullets "do" than all the armchair supposed experts. What I have to say will not I suspect be well-received by the bigger is better crowd.

I've seen a LOT of people shot with the .45 ACP and 9mm simply WALK IN THE DOOR with no outwardly ill effect. I've seen people shot with the lowly .22LR come in by ambulance, in shock, near death.

I was an avid ballistics enthusiast for many years prior to entering the medical field and I felt (as most ballistics enthusiasts do), that large-bore, high-powered handgun rounds were THE thing to carry...and in fact this is true, but this refers to carrying calibers such as top-loaded .357 magnums, .41/.44 magnums and up. Perhaps hot loaded .45 ACP and 9mm with the right bullet and the right load (meaning hand load) can do the dance, but 20 years of SEEING FIRST-HAND what standard loads do has left me a bit "cold" on the subject.

First, human tissue does not react like ballistic gelatin regardless of what any "expert" claims. When a bullet enters and passes through a human, the tissue does not "fracture," nor does it remain "blown out" or in receipt of some mythical "crush cavity." What human tissue DOES is slough off bullet impacts with amazingly efficiency! I'm talking about low-powered bullets here of course. The whole "permanent crush cavity" thing is absolutely hysterical...I've SEEN probably thousands of bullet wounds created by low-powered handguns such as the 9mm, .38 spl, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP, and NONE had "permanently crushed ballistic tracks!" NONE. The human body...TISSUE simply does not respond that way. Additionally, human skin stretches like a latex balloon and so does the underlying tissue...basically, subsonic bullets of ALL calibers kill by damaging or destroying necessary arteries/vessels/nerve tissue as they pass by, NOT by any mythical crush cavity, temporary, permanent, or otherwise.

Why am I going on such a tirade about this? Because the ONE caliber I have observed to be amazingly LETHAL is the lowly .22 Long Rifle. And I'm not talking about .22's fired from long barrels here....SHORT, pistol barrels provide all the impetus the .22LR needs to do amazing things FAR beyond what it should be able to do based upon paper statistics.

The 5.7x28 fits in the exact same category, only MAGNIFIED! A .22LR at 1200 fps impact will tumble wildly, and follow any "superhighway" it connects too...meaning veins, or sections between sinew and bone. The 5.7x28 will do the same. The .22LR generally starts out life with about 100 lb-ft. of KE depending on loading and barrel length yet the impact RESULT is far, FAR beyond what this number would suggest. The 5.7x28 starts out at close to twice the speed...meaning violent tumbling in tissue complete with fragmentation. If a bullet passes clean through a person it's carrying MOST of the kinetic energy with it. The REASON the 5.56x45 is so deadly is quite because the bullet was originally a "varmint" caliber not considered adequate for taking dangerous animals, YET when it comes to big, bad HUMANS, a varmint round does an amazing job! The 5.7x28 may impact with a mere 300 lb-ft of KE, yet the tumbling effect of the bullet when it comes to dumping all KE into the target CANNOT be ignored....well, it can by the "bigger is better" crowd, but only to their folly.

Anyway, after a couple of years dealing with GSW's of all calibers I realized that a .22LR is probably the IDEAL "carry gun"....and no, I don't expect to convince ANYONE of this, but it is based upon my actual experience. The 5.7x28 brings all that and DOUBLE to the table. Approximately 2.5-3X the KE, same lightweight bullet albeit constructed to penetrate, and it's not hard at all to see why the U.S. Secret Service carries the Five-Seven. Clearly others recognize the lethality of the cartridge!

The .40 S&W was supposed to be the Cat's meow...now thanks to government regulatory interference the .45 ACP is back in favor, yet none of the major police agencies choose it...why?

Having seen my share (and a few dozen other people's) of people shot by everything from the .22 up to .30'06 I know the rationale and the reason for the 5.7x28 becoming the standard...it gets the job done in a hurry!

Does this mean I think it is "better" than everything else...of course not! A high-powered rifle round from a rifle barrel is destructive of human tissue to a degree that simply must be seen to appreciated....UNLIKE TV, people shot with such rounds lose whatever future they might have had, and the same would be true of those hit by any "real" magnum handgun round.

I wish we could contrive some new, more accurate method of measuring ballistic effectiveness because as it stands people tend to shake out in the small bullet at high speed category, or the giant bullet walking out the barrel crowd. The fact is...VELOCITY is everything when it comes to bone fragmentation and tissue destruction. A bullet capable of punching through a Kevlar vest and plate will do the same to bone, and it will tumble and fragment dumping every shred of KE into the recipient.

I tend to think KE is THE "Gold Standard" based upon observed results, and truth be told a hit from a high-velocity, high-KE bullets are quite destructive, while large, slow bullets have no effect beyond that tissue they immediately contact.

The Five-Seven is THE carry solution. With the right ammo (Elite for those who cannot reload), it will punch through sheet steel with ease and tumble into flesh which makes it useful for anyone who contemplates a running gunfight on the road. "Penetrator" ammo will easily punch through door sheet steel that would stop magnum rounds designed to expand.

Several years ago I had the opportunity to test a variety of handgun loads on car doors and to my utter surprise the vaunted .44 magnum loaded with expanding point ammo had a hard time punching clean through...the Five-Seven punches through almost without saying.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:55:13 AM by gryphon »

Offline TheQ

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 09:51:33 AM »
TLDR -- love you man :x
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 10:23:40 AM »
Some more reading.  Although he used weaker 5.7 ammo in his chart.  Actual SD ammo is much better.  The ammo I use leaves the barrel of my Five-seveN at 2,600 FPS.

http://blog.thejustnation.org/2011/04/5-7x28mm-ammo-review/

Also Wiki:

The Five-seven is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, including Canada, France, Greece, India, Poland, Spain, and the United States.  In the United States, the Five-seven is in use with numerous law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

Offline TheQ

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 10:28:19 AM »
And NYPD use 9mm -- wait, that's what I carry.
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 10:30:51 AM »
I hope you are a better shot with it than they are.

Indiana State Police recently switched to .45 ACP.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 10:36:38 AM »
Indiana State Police recently switched to .45 ACP.

Even at nearly twice the price, it's still a lot cheaper when you only have to shoot the guy once.  ;D

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2014, 10:40:27 AM »

Indiana State Police recently switched to .45 ACP.
Me too.
Well not so recently. :2guns:
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Offline SD40VE

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2014, 01:15:08 PM »
i have been looking at the 5-7

20 round mags seem nice

the round seems ballistically sound.

idk

Offline TheQ

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2014, 02:00:39 PM »

i have been looking at the 5-7

20 round mags seem nice

the round seems ballistically sound.

idk

Get a Glock 17. You can get an extended mag plate. 20 rounds. BOOM!

Not enough? Glock sells 33 round mags and aftermarket makes 100 round drums. BOOM!
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Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2014, 02:27:57 PM »
Get a Glock 17. You can get an extended mag plate. 20 rounds. BOOM!

Not enough? Glock sells 33 round mags and aftermarket makes 100 round drums. BOOM!

Above  is spot on IMHO. Today's 9mm defensive rounds -some well over 1300 fps, have made a so so round much more reliable as far as stopping power goes. Granted the 5.7 is a great round and has a cool big/little brother in the P90 carbine, but Q's points are valid. As you can see from my icon...the glocks also have carbines that can even use their mags too. In summation - both viable carry options, one just at a much lower overall cost. 8)
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Offline SD40VE

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2014, 02:29:51 PM »
Get a Glock 17. You can get an extended mag plate. 20 rounds. BOOM!

Not enough? Glock sells 33 round mags and aftermarket makes 100 round drums. BOOM!

A. its a glock
B. its 9mm

i wont go any further. thats not something i would personally buy. idc if it was belt fed with 10,000 rounds... i am not a fan of glock or the 9mm

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2014, 04:15:21 PM »
Get a Glock 17. You can get an extended mag plate. 20 rounds.

Not enough? Glock sells 33 round mags and aftermarket makes 100 round drums. BOOM!

But, but, it will print!

Offline Jeff

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 09:10:16 PM »
i am not a fan of glock or the 9mm

We're getting a brovorce and I'm keeping the kids.

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 11:34:47 PM »
gryphon, can you post a link to the article?  Its a good read.   :)

Offline CV67PAT

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 11:38:55 PM »
Looks like the silliness has moved from the facebook page to the forums.

I hope the mods don't find out and turn this place into a waste land like the facebook page did.

Mod note: find out what?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:17:56 AM by TheQ »
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 11:40:54 PM »
I don't have it.  It came from the five-seven forum and I saved the text to my computer.  It's been a couple of years.  You could probably find it there with a search, though. 

Offline SD40VE

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2014, 08:19:00 AM »
We're getting a brovorce and I'm keeping the kids.

i like the .40 round :P i prefer something that will actually stop a threat :P :spank:

Offline CV67PAT

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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2014, 12:14:55 PM »
i like the .40 round :P i prefer something that will actually stop a threat :P :spank:
Then the .40S&W isn't the right choice. There is a lot of reasons why it isn't.
First in my opinion is the lack of diversity in the round. There is no +P .40S&W. It can only be loaded down. Not up. Sure there are a lot of different bullet configurations. But that's all.

The 9mm on the other hand can be loaded in a wide variety of charges to match bullet configurations.
Standard charge, +P, and +P+

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Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2014, 12:46:57 PM »
Then the .40S&W isn't the right choice. There is a lot of reasons why it isn't.
First in my opinion is the lack of diversity in the round. There is no +P .40S&W. It can only be loaded down. Not up. Sure there are a lot of different bullet configurations. But that's all.

The 9mm on the other hand can be loaded in a wide variety of charges to match bullet configurations.
Standard charge, +P, and +P+

Spot on! 40 is a OK round IMHO, but as Pat says...it has some lack in the variety department. If you reload  - 45acp is a fine choice, as it has a huge selection of bullets available. From 150gr to 230gr. Hell - I can buy atomic 45 acp off the shelf at my local wally world (185gr JHP +p that moves @ 1200+ fps) that far out performs s&w 40...don't get me wrong, I own a couple of 40s too. They just aren't my first choice for carry.
http://atomicammunition.com/45acp185.html
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2014, 01:12:29 PM »
Then the .40S&W isn't the right choice. There is a lot of reasons why it isn't.
First in my opinion is the lack of diversity in the round. There is no +P .40S&W. It can only be loaded down. Not up. Sure there are a lot of different bullet configurations. But that's all.

The 9mm on the other hand can be loaded in a wide variety of charges to match bullet configurations.
Standard charge, +P, and +P+

Bah.  The reason people like the 9mm is that it's easier shooting and not as snappy as the 40.  The advantage of this is that you can probably reacquire the target faster.  Once you start loading it up +P+ and stuff you've lost that advantage but retained the disadvantage of a smaller bullet.  So you have the worst of both worlds.  You have to load the 9mm up to get the performance of a .40.  Meh.

I like 9mm for people like my wife.  ;D


Offline TheQ

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2014, 01:35:33 PM »

I like 9mm for people like my wife.  ;D



Your wife must be a relatively weak person....?
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Offline gryphon

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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 01:43:52 PM »
Yes, she is.  5'2" 130#, although I think she could be trained to run a shotgun or .40 if she had to.  The other day when we got home I unloaded and set my K40 BUG on the counter.  She picked it up and said, "This is heavy!"   :lol:


Offline Jeff

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2014, 01:50:01 PM »
i like the .40 round :P i prefer something that will actually stop a threat :P :spank:

It stopped Martin  :hide:

Offline SD40VE

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 02:40:05 PM »
my girl loves her 9mm, i hate it, with a passion lol. i guess it comes down to personal preference. .40 is a bit snappier. but its what i like :P

i had a 9mm i didnt like it at all. hence my girl now has it since i gave it to her and got reg put in her name.

i prefer 40 and 45.

to each their own

Offline Jeff

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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2014, 03:27:43 PM »
9mm performs just as well as the ones that start with a "4" it is why I chose it as my carry.  Nothing to do with recoil or anything else. 

But clearly .22LR is the best performer anyways.

Offline TheQ

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Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2014, 03:34:41 PM »
9mm performs just as well as the ones that start with a "4" it is why I chose it as my carry.  Nothing to do with recoil or anything else. 

But clearly .22LR is the best performer anyways.

The stuff Dan carries is lighter than .22 LR....
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 08:55:44 AM by TheQ »
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Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2014, 03:49:43 PM »
Your wife must be a relatively weak person....?

I was thinking she must be a strong woman to be married to gryphon!!! :P :P :P


The 40 is a tweener round.  I carry 380, 9mm and 45 but I won't carry 40.  I have a 357 that I might carry if I ever decide to hike in the big bad woods.   Nah, too much exercise!!

Offline gryphon

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Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2014, 04:00:37 PM »
The stuff Dam carries is lighter than .22 LR....

It's Dan.   :toetap:

Offline gryphon

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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2014, 04:06:41 PM »
I was thinking she must be a strong woman to be married to gryphon!!! :P :P :P
There's some truth to that.   :)
Quote
The 40 is a tweener round.
It is, but everything is a compromise, especially in pistols.  I think most common carry rounds (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Mag) are fine if you are comfortable with them, except one: .380 ACP.  Not nearly enough penetration to be a serious SD round.

Offline Pond Scum

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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2014, 04:43:29 PM »
..... It is, but everything is a compromise, especially in pistols.  I think most common carry rounds (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Mag) are fine if you are comfortable with them, except one: .380 ACP.  Not nearly enough penetration to be a serious SD round.

Not true if you carry FMJ in a 380.  Some say it has too much penetration!  But I use Corbon DPX or Buffalo Bore with the Barnes copper bullet for carry ammo.  I think they are a good combination of expansion and penetration. 

Most of the time that I carry a 380 it is the Bersa BT380 Plus .... 15 + 1 compared to a 1911 with 8+1.  The Bersa is comfortable carry, a good shooter and with 16 rounds I am comfortable with the stopping power in it.

Offline SD40VE

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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2014, 04:45:42 PM »
Not true if you carry FMJ in a 380.  Some say it has too much penetration!  But I use Corbon DPX or Buffalo Bore with the Barnes copper bullet for carry ammo.  I think they are a good combination of expansion and penetration. 

Most of the time that I carry a 380 it is the Bersa BT380 Plus .... 15 + 1 compared to a 1911 with 8+1.  The Bersa is comfortable carry, a good shooter and with 16 rounds I am comfortable with the stopping power in it.

it does come down to what you are comfortable with.

Offline Jeff

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« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2014, 04:54:28 PM »
it does come down to what you are comfortable with.

Indeed. That is how it should be.

I still want to get something in 10mm :) but I wouldn't carry 10mm.... or would I?
 ;D

Offline gryphon

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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2014, 05:12:51 PM »
Not true if you carry FMJ in a 380.
I agree with the FMJ in .380 ACP.  When I had a .380 as a BUG that's what I put in it, but I sold it and went back to a .40 BUG.
Quote
Some say it has too much penetration!
Drugs are bad, mkay?   ;D  First of all, even a .380 FMJ isn't going to penetrate too far.  But second of all, there is no such thing as too much penetration, with the possible exception of being on an airplane.  The more penetration, the better.  People who say they want to bullet to stop inside a person so that it dumps every bit of KE in the body are just wrong.  I want it to go through the body as fast and as far as possible, and if it exits, so much the better.  Two holes are better than one!  That's twice as many places to leak from and more damage done to the body.  The only reason you wouldn't want that is collateral damage behind the target, and the chances of that in almost any SD situation is very minimal (think about it, think about where you are going to be where you are likely to be involved in a SD encounter).
Quote
Buffalo Bore
That's supposed to be pretty good stuff I think, but I've never tried it.

Offline Jeff

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« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2014, 06:32:32 PM »
The only reason you wouldn't want that is collateral damage behind the target, and the chances of that in almost any SD situation is very minimal (think about it, think about where you are going to be where you are likely to be involved in a SD encounter).

I guess this is probably true considering you aren't likely to be attacked with a lot of people around unless it's some sort of mass shooting, then again, everyone is going to either be running away from the person or hiding under a table.  So the likelihood of penetrating through them and hitting someone else is probably pretty low, I hadn't thought about that.

So 10mm it is, I don't want there to be two holes, I want them to be cut in half!!  I want them to look like those chickens in the RIP ammo video I watched.

Offline gryphon

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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 12:09:04 PM »
gryphon, can you post a link to the article?  Its a good read.   :)

Looked it up for you. http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=192968#p192968

Offline Pond Scum

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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2014, 12:21:12 PM »
Thanks!   I was waiting to get home to Google it!!   :)

Offline gryphon

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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2014, 12:52:13 PM »
Thanks!   I was waiting to get home to Google it!!   :)
I posted the entire thing in my earlier message, so you're not really getting anything new.   :)

It gives you a starting off point, though to read other threads if you want.  Like the guy who killed a 1,200 pound moose with his Five-seveN with one shot.

Offline Shadow Bear

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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2014, 02:46:48 PM »
Indeed. That is how it should be.

I still want to get something in 10mm :) but I wouldn't carry 10mm.... or would I?
 ;D

AEDC (almost every day carry)= 10mm Rock Island VZ Tactical- 135gn 1650fps of goodness, but sometimes a Browning HP with 124gn Golden Sabres +P+, occasionally 45ACP 1911's stoked with SXTs, and rarely a PT100 stoked with Rangers.....
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline Jeff

  • Posts: 1166
Re: Gryphon, watch this video if you dare.
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2014, 05:47:05 PM »
Nice.

The only 10mm gun I have ever even held was a Glock 20.  I'm not a Glock fanboy so I would look around and feel several of them to see what strikes me as awesome.


That would be cool to own a Browning high power too.