OC at Tee-ball game

[karudin]

Well tonight was my daughter's first tee-ball game. There were a ton of cars so I dropped everyone off and parked on the road and walked to the field. The fields are considered school property. After I got to the field my daughter was playing on I had a guy come up to me.

Guy: Sir are you a cop
Me : No
Guy: Well I'm going to need you to leave with your weapon
Me: I'm legally allowed to be here
Guy: This is school property, you are going to need to leave with your weapon.
Me: I understand that but I have a CPL and I am allowed to be here.
Guy: Sir you need to leave.
Me: No I am legally allowed to be here
Guy: Fine, whatever.

Then the guy storms off. I was going to cite MSP Legal Update 86 but by the time I thought of it he was already walking away. I kept a cool head (my wife and other kids, mother-in-law and her boyfriend, and my mother were all present) but the guy seemed to have a serious bug up his ass.

My question to you guys:

Everyone parks at the fields, so would the area where vehicles are parked be considered a parking lot? Legal update 86 states that CPL holders are allow to CC on school property as long as the pistol stays in the vehicle and parents/guardians are dropping off/picking up a child. Now I have an OWB and no cover so as soon as I get out of the vehicle it is no longer CC it is OC. Would this be a correct interpretation of this or is it if you drive onto school property the pistol has to be kept in the vehicle and I would be forced to park on the road and walk over?

[Jeff]

People are just parking on side streets?  That wouldn't be school property nor a parking lot.

We would probably have to see a picture, or you can check to see where the schools property ends.  But if people are just parking on a road that neighbors the field it shouldn't be school property.

[CV67PAT]

The parking lot is the place where the cars normally park. Once you leave that lot you are on the school property, as defined in the statute. You may drive onto school property if you are dropping off or picking up YOUR children with a CPL and the gun in your car. If you leave your car while in school property, you may not carry a concealed pistol. The play field, grass, etc is not a parking lot, even though some people park their cars there.

MSP #86 is not a legal document.

[karudin]

The parking lot is the place where the cars normally park. Once you leave that lot you are on the school property, as defined in . e statute. You may drive onto school property if you are dropping off or picking up YOUR ch. dren with a CPL and the gun in your car. If you leave your car while in school property, you may not carry a concealed pistol. The play field, grass, etc is not a parking lot, even though some people park their cars there.

MSP #86 is not a legal document.

I know MSP #86 is not a legal document but it has the laws that I needed to reference in it. Pat my question is though if I have an owb holster, when I get out I am not CC I am OC. So the only time i am CC is while in the vehicle. So going by the way it is written i wouldnt be breaking any laws 

Jeff - people park at the fields if there is space I had to park on the street due to no space.

[TheQ]

A court might (on a good day) interpret the field is a parking lot, if it's being used (with the blessing of the school) for parking. Some buildings may not even have a fixed parking lot in smaller districts.

[casper]

I know MSP #86 is not a legal document but it has the laws that I needed to reference in it. Pat my question is though if I have an owb holster, when I get out I am not CC I am OC. So the only time i am CC is while in the vehicle. So going by the way it is written i wouldnt be breaking any laws 

Jeff - people park at the fields if there is space I had to park on the street due to no space.

It's not CC in a vehicle. It's a transportation restriction for non CPL holders to not be able to transport in a vehicle. If that were the case I could just set my gun on the dash board, or duct tape it to my fore head, ta da, open carry. If you get in a booth at a restaurant and your facing the wall with your gun, is that now CC, NO!

[karudin]

Just looking to see if I understand the law the way it is written not how we'd like to see it written. Or if anyone has past experience with this particular situation.

[m.marino]

You write are considered school property. Are they really school property or are they used by the school and other public groups and the public at large? I would seriously want to know if it was really school property first. Next you did very well in not getting angry and from your statements you sound like you are preparing for being positive in round two (unless you daughter decides to stop playing or they try to push her out). It might be interesting to ask the person who approaches you IF they are law enforcement? If not than ask their name and call the police of intentional harassment and a direct attempt to violate your civil rights (If they are a part of the school or school board even better).

Well done and hope her team does well this year. Also good to hear of a whole family going out to enjoy real social activity. -Michael

[bigt8261]

I always found the picking up and dropping off portion of MCL 28.425o (1)(a) to be mostly redundant.

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

because subsection (4)

(4) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

[casper]

The fact remains that if he is wearing an "OWH" and his gun is "not" covered, i.e. "open carrying", it doesn't matter if he's in a vehicle or not, he is "open carrying". "You can open carry in a vehicle". So the holy ground debate is a moot point. Or am I wrong ?

[CV67PAT]

I always found the picking up and dropping off portion of MCL 28.425o (1)(a) to be mostly redundant.
(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
because subsection (4)
(4) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

On it's face it does appear redundant. He's where the exception of MCL 28.425o (1)(a) comes into play: The narrow exception of parking lots not being included as "premises" needed to be expanded with respect to schools.

When a parent drives around back to the sports area of a school, they have left the parking lot and are now on school property [as defined in the MCL 750.237a as referenced in 28.425o(1)(a).] Without the exception, the parent would be in violation of the CPL statute, since they are no longer in the parking lot of the school. The exception allows for this activity.

Of course, upon exiting the vehicle, the parent must be open carrying. Not immediately afterwards. But upon exiting. Even the momentary concealment of the firearm upon exiting the vehicle prior to uncovering can result in a CPL violation.

[CV67PAT]

The fact remains that if he is wearing an "OWH" and his gun is "not" covered, i.e. "open carrying", it doesn't matter if he's in a vehicle or not, he is "open carrying". "You can open carry in a vehicle". So the holy ground debate is a moot point. Or am I wrong ?

You are not wrong, provided a parent or guardian is dropping off or picking up their children.

[bigt8261]

On it's face it does appear redundant. He's where the exception of MCL 28.425o (1)(a) comes into play: The narrow exception of parking lots not being included as "premises" needed to be expanded with respect to schools.

When a parent drives around back to the sports area of a school, they have left the parking lot and are now on school property [as defined in the MCL 750.237a as referenced in 28.425o(1)(a).] Without the exception, the parent would be in violation of the CPL statute, since they are no longer in the parking lot of the school. The exception allows for this activity.

Of course, upon exiting the vehicle, the parent must be open carrying. Not immediately afterwards. But upon exiting. Even the momentary concealment of the firearm upon exiting the vehicle prior to uncovering can result in a CPL violation.

Yep, that's exactly why I stuck that word "mostly" in there. I doubt it would ever be used, but I'm happy to have the extra protection.

[CV67PAT]

A close examination of the exception needs to be undertaken to preclude possible issues.

First is the phrase "...parent or legal guardian of a student..."
This doesn't include the grandparents, siblings, extended family members, or coaches, of the student.

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

Second is the phrase "...student of the school..."
If it's not your student's school, then they are not a "student of the school" that you are on driving around on school property.

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

Thirdly is the phrase "... if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school."
If a parent just drives on the school property to watch child's sports and then drive's away, a violation may have occurred.

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

[Scott Leyder]

So, is there anything that says that we have to answer the law enforcement question with a direct "yes" or "no"?  I mean, I can think of a lot of grey area words that leave the answer to interpretation of the individual asking.  I don't want to get a charge of impersonating a cop but, I see no reason to pander to those that want to feel safe because there is a badge attached to the individual carrying. 

[casper]

I hate it when people ask, Are you a cop ? Like that, somehow makes the sheeple feel safer. I could reply, Are you a cop ? Are you writing a book ? No I'm not a cop, I can shoot straight. LOL.

[CV67PAT]

So, is there anything that says that we have to answer the law enforcement question with a direct "yes" or "no"?  I mean, I can think of a lot of grey area words that leave the answer to interpretation of the individual asking.  I don't want to get a charge of impersonating a cop but, I see no reason to pander to those that want to feel safe because there is a badge attached to the individual carrying. 

My favorite is "Why do you ask?"

[casper]

My favorite is "Why do you ask?"

Because your carrying a "GUN" !!!!!! Only the police carry guns. Bah, Bah, Bah.

[karudin]

Thank you for all the feedback. There is definitely some stuff to think about so to be safe I'll continue to park on the road and walk over. I have a feeling I am ruffling feathers already so I will try to watch my step and not get into the gray area too much. I plan on standing my ground and was entirely ready to have a discussion with LEO'S if they decided to call them. I am hoping that Howell LEO understand all the carry laws and correct them if they call in.. My daughter has another game tomorrow so I'll post how it goes. Again, thank you for all the feedback.

I was told the fields are school property but they are located next to an elementary school so I doubt they use them. For the mostpart the only time I see the fields used is during this time of yyear by Howell area junior baseball association which is not part of the school system. So it would be interesting if they say it is school property because they think that means they can prevent everyone from carrying. I will make sure and get the guys name if he approaches me again and I will be contacting the association.

[CV67PAT]

Thank you for all the feedback. There is definitely some stuff to think about so to be safe I'll continue to park on the road and walk over. I have a feeling I am ruffling feathers already so I will try to watch my step and not get into the gray area too much. I plan on standing my ground and was entirely ready to have a discussion with LEO'S if they decided to call them. I am hoping that Howell LEO understand all the carry laws and correct them if they call in.. My daughter has another game tomorrow so I'll post how it goes. Again, thank you for all the feedback.

I was told the fields are school property but they are located next to an elementary school so I doubt they use them. For the mostpart the only time I see the fields used is during this time of yyear by Howell area junior baseball association which is not part of the school system. So it would be interesting if they say it is school property because they think that means they can prevent everyone from carrying. I will make sure and get the guys name if he approaches me again and I will be contacting the association.

Good idea. Remain calm. And carry your recorder.