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Author Topic: Standard MCL Citation References  (Read 11005 times)

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Offline TheQ

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Standard MCL Citation References
« on: July 06, 2010, 11:45:25 PM »
Do we have a reference card of common LEO misconceptions and how to set them straight?

For example, MCL 28.422a provides:
(3)....The purchaser may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the record. However, the person is not required to have the record in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.

Do we have a hand card filled with citations like this?
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Offline TheQ

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 11:46:50 PM »
If not -- and there is interest -- I am willing to serve as a focal point for people to provide them.  I will document them and provide a copy to the group.
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Offline JoeCar

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 12:34:06 AM »
Sounds like a good idea, hand one to the cop...
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 12:52:40 AM »
Not to put a damper on this idea but from my experience the police are not very likely to listen to you much less read and believe some card you hand them.
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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline TheQ

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 01:41:56 AM »
Quote from: autosurgeon on July 13, 2010, 12:52:40 AM
Not to put a damper on this idea but from my experience the police are not very likely to listen to you much less read and believe some card you hand them.

What if what you holds references the MCL which can be verified?
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 01:46:45 AM »
They may verify it ... but you likely will still do the ride... the less you say to the police the better period!
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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline JoeCar

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2010, 07:58:37 AM »
In my opinion, the card with those particular MCL's, concerning open carry, might be the only words i utter in speaking with them. It's the laws that they are supposed to know.
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2010, 11:07:48 AM »
Quote from: JoeCar on July 13, 2010, 07:58:37 AM
In my opinion, the card with those particular MCL's, concerning open carry, might be the only words i utter in speaking with them. It's the laws that they are supposed to know.

They will most likely not even take the information from you. The point is you are better off saying little and fighting it with there superiors later.
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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline Agent1

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 01:58:38 PM »
IMO I think that a reference card such as this might just save someone a long and negative experience and may just educate a LEO at the same time. I sure would like to carry one around with my tri-fold.
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"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, arn't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't."
 John Wayne (The Shootist.)

Offline TheQ

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 03:29:04 PM »
It seems there is enough support in this thread to have such a card. Here's my proposal to the moderators:
 
1. Create a new sticky thread in a forum here. Reference this thread in that one.
2. Make the new thread sticky.
3. As discussions of rights appear in other forums and as someone "proves" it with an MCL/AGO citation that right and citation get posted in that thread.

When a substansiql amount of posts have been made to it, I will format a card and publish it to the membership. I can maintain this card with new information as it is posted to the sticky thread.
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Offline scot623

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 10:30:50 PM »
It is my personal electronically recorded experience that some LEO's will call MCL's "mumbo jumbo".
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Offline TheQ

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 11:12:59 PM »
Quote from: scot623 on July 13, 2010, 10:30:50 PM
It is my personal electronically recorded experience that some LEO's will call MCL's "mumbo jumbo".

It's good that our LEOs have such a large regard for the law.  If you inform them of the "mumbo jumbo" it may make it easier to prove they acted in bad faith if you try to sew the department later.
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Offline Agent1

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 09:38:30 AM »
scot623........"mumbo jumbo".

I must have missed class the day that the Prof. discussed "mumbo jumbo".  Or maybe that is an L3 term that only the highest form of educators use. LOL

I did hear that sound bite somewhere. That SGT was an idiot and under-educated. Time to start sending these LEO's back to school for legal refreshment!!! :(
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"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, arn't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't."
 John Wayne (The Shootist.)

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 10:31:28 AM »
As Scott623 as found arguing with the officers on the scene can be largely useless... If they feel they have PC you are getting arrested and no card will stop that. It is far better just as with Landowners to fight it another day IMOP.

If you look at the Trifold you will find that most if not all of the pertinent MCL's are quoted there along with case law and AG opinions and State Police Opinions.

We have condensed it to a card before but find that the Trifold is more effective as a handout.

Now the card can be good as a reference for you when discussing with folks in a less tense situation than a stop.
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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline venator

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Re: Standard MCL Citation References
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2010, 09:40:19 AM »
Quote from: TheQ on July 13, 2010, 11:12:59 PM
Quote from: scot623 on July 13, 2010, 10:30:50 PM
It is my personal electronically recorded experience that some LEO's will call MCL's "mumbo jumbo".

It's good that our LEOs have such a large regard for the law.  If you inform them of the "mumbo jumbo" it may make it easier to prove they acted in bad faith if you try to sew the department later.

Not trying to dampen your enthusiasm, BUT MANY of the experienced OCers know what they are talking about.  They have experienced or have listened to many recordings of interactions with LEOs in regards to OCing.  What this experience has told us is that the LEO is VERY SELDOM going to listen to what you have to say let alone read a card you give them.  Not saying it couldn't happen, but the LEO most likely believes he is the expert in regards to the law, he must appear to remain in charge of the situation.  He/she can't be distracted by facts and the actual law during the interaction, as it would appear to be a sign of weakness.

But by all means it's worth a try, just don't be surprised if they ignore it.  Better to wash rinse and repeat and remain silent.
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Looking forward to having more smites than posts.  Thanks all.
The above are my opinions only.  Please seek an attorney concerning all questions of law.
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