Transporting Pistol

[houghmoney]

I can open carry in public but while driving to my destination I have to transport the pistol and clip separately? Just doesnt make sense. So is it illegal to actually transport it in my holster even if the clip is in the trunk?

[CV67PAT]

I can open carry in public but while driving to my destination I have to transport the pistol and clip separately? Just doesnt make sense. So is it illegal to actually transport it in my holster even if the clip is in the trunk?

Yes, that is unlawful.
Unlicensed persons must transport their pistols, unloaded and in a case designed for a firearm.
Get caught otherwise and it's a 5 year felony.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-231a

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); "antique firearm" defined.

Sec. 231a.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

(2) As used in this section, "antique firearm" means either of the following:

(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade

.

[#1Gunner]

Yes, that is unlawful.
Unlicensed persons must transport their pistols, unloaded and in a case designed for a firearm.
Get caught otherwise and it's a 5 year felony.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-231a
.

Pat then what does this law apply to? It doesnt say it has to be in a case but has to only be unloaded and only 1 of the following:

unloaded and is 1 or more
of the following:
(a) Taken down.
(b) Enclosed in a case.
(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or
a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
So cant it just be unloaded and sitting next to you on the seat taken down? You mentioned it has to be in a case but are you sure that is correct? I want to make sure I get this right so please let me know what I am missing if anything...

[part deux]

Pat then what does this law apply to? It doesnt say it has to be in a case but has to only be unloaded and only 1 of the following:

unloaded and is 1 or more
of the following:
(a) Taken down.
(b) Enclosed in a case.
(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or
a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
So cant it just be unloaded and sitting next to you on the seat taken down? You mentioned it has to be in a case but are you sure that is correct? I want to make sure I get this right so please let me know what I am missing if anything...

Define taken down

[#1Gunner]

Define taken down

I see your point. I would say removing slide and magazine and barell and recoil spring... So you are saying that you are safer enclosed in a case correct? I am still new to trying to understand some of the humor on this site. I dont know sometimes when people are joking serious or trying to make a point but I am getting better. Fink at MSP told me that if it was taken down as I described it would be OK but that was in respect to a rifle when I asked the question.

This applies to me mostly because I drive a pickup reg cab which is why I called her in first place. thx

[linux203]

Pat then what does this law apply to? It doesnt say it has to be in a case but has to only be unloaded and only 1 of the following:

unloaded and is 1 or more
of the following:
(a) Taken down.
(b) Enclosed in a case.
(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or
a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
So cant it just be unloaded and sitting next to you on the seat taken down? You mentioned it has to be in a case but are you sure that is correct? I want to make sure I get this right so please let me know what I am missing if anything...

You are quoting MCL 750.227d, but left out a very important detail....

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227d

There is no provision in 750.231a, which applies to pistols, allowing the firearm to be broken down.  So, unloaded and encased. In the trunk, if possible; inaccessible to the occupants if not possible.

[LD]

I can open carry in public but while driving to my destination I have to transport the pistol and clip separately? Just doesnt make sense. So is it illegal to actually transport it in my holster even if the clip is in the trunk?

Just a point of information, the loaded magazine may be transported in the same case as the pistol.
Just no round in the chamber and magazine,if loaded, not in the weapon.

[welshj]

Michigan law also provides that a person may carry, transport or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in both the barrel and magazine, and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.9 Furthermore, a person may carry, transport, possess or discharge a firearm without a hunting license if:
 •The person is not taking or attempting to take game but is engaged in:
 
Target practice using an identifiable, artificially constructed target or targets;
 Practice with silhouettes, plinking, skeet, or trap; or
 Sighting-in the firearm;
 •The person is, or is accompanied by or has the permission of:
 
The owner of the property on which the target practice or sighting-in referenced above is taking place; or
 The lessee of that property for a term of not less than one year; or
 •The owner or lessee of the property does not receive remuneration for the target practice or sighting-in activity.10

Magazine must be unloaded as well. Can carry magazine in the case with the gun yes, but empty.
Ammunition should be carried in a seperate compartment from the firearm. (locked glove box, in cab of vehicle if the gun is in the trunk.)
A locked case, a gun lock through the action of the firearm is not a requirement from what I understand- but is helpful and keeps firearms securely and easily recognized as "clear" and inoperable.

there are several sites for information.


http://smartgunlaws.org/guns-in-vehicles-in-michigan/

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/Publications/Firearms.pdf



Note that there are different "rules" for concealed carry licensees.Carry gun can be loaded and concealed in the vehicle with you.
Extra ammunition for it, and other firearms in the vehicle may be loaded in magazines and carried in the car.
Multiple firearms may be located in the car as well- cleared and cased. Both ammo and guns in the cab of the vehicle and not required to be seperated.

Im in ohio, but i travel regularly to michigan to shoot with family.
So I try to stay up on the laws.

Ignorance of the law is not a legal excuse, so we as gun owners are required to know and follow them.
have fun shooting!

[TheQ]

Magazine must be unloaded as well. Can carry magazine in the case with the gun yes, but empty.
Ammunition should be carried in a seperate compartment from the firearm. (locked glove box, in cab of vehicle if the gun is in the trunk.)
A locked case, a gun lock through the action of the firearm is not a requirement from what I understand- but is helpful and keeps firearms securely and easily recognized as "clear" and inoperable.

there are several sites for information.


http://smartgunlaws.org/guns-in-vehicles-in-michigan/

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/Publications/Firearms.pdf



Note that there are different "rules" for concealed carry licensees.Carry gun can be loaded and concealed in the vehicle with you.
Extra ammunition for it, and other firearms in the vehicle may be loaded in magazines and carried in the car.
Multiple firearms may be located in the car as well- cleared and cased. Both ammo and guns in the cab of the vehicle and not required to be seperated.

Im in ohio, but i travel regularly to michigan to shoot with family.
So I try to stay up on the laws.

Ignorance of the law is not a legal excuse, so we as gun owners are required to know and follow them.
have fun shooting!

Nothing in statute nor case law says the loaded magazine can't be in the same as the firearm.

[part deux]

Welsh,

Where did you hear that rounds of ammunition have to be removed from the magazine?  None of your sources indicate that requirement.

[LD]

Welshj.....

" if the firearm is unloaded in both the barrel and magazine,"

Refers to an integral magazine not a removable one.
While transporting ammunition separated from the gun is 100% legal, it is in no way MORE legal then if the ammo is in the same case as the firearm.

 

[linux203]

Pistols.....

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

Not a pistol.....

(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
(a) Taken down.
(b) Enclosed in a case.
(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

Where did "unloaded in barrel or magazine" come from?

[CitizensHaveRights]

Where did "unloaded in barrel or magazine" come from?

It sounds suspiciously like the instructions I read in the DNR hunting and trapping guides, probably in reference to rifles with fixed magazines. I also seem to recall the DNR wanting you to have the idea that ammo and magazines containing ammo should be (not necessarily must be, but it was so many years ago that I can't remember the exact language) transported separately from the firearms. When I was younger I believed that best practice was cased gun in trunk, magazines in glove box.

[linux203]

It sounds suspiciously like the instructions I read in the DNR hunting and trapping guides, probably in reference to rifles with fixed magazines. I also seem to recall the DNR wanting you to have the idea that ammo and magazines containing ammo should be (not necessarily must be, but it was so many years ago that I can't remember the exact language) transported separately from the firearms. When I was younger I believed that best practice was cased gun in trunk, magazines in glove box.

(6) The department shall not promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits an individual who is licensed or exempt from licensure under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, from carrying a pistol in compliance with that act, whether concealed or otherwise, on property under the control of the department.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-504

[Golden Eagle]

Michigan law does get complicated.
Firearms over 26" can be transported unloaded in the trunk without being in a case. I agree MCL 750.227d only applies to firearms over 26 in. and a CPL will not change this.

Understand that under 750.231a if you don't have a CPL and if you have a trunk you must do all of the following for a pistol: in the trunk, unloaded and in a case.

Under the influence with out a trunk 28.425k (3) (a) ...pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.

[welshj]

Pistols.....
Not a pistol.....
Where did "unloaded in barrel or magazine" come from?

I listed all of my referances in my previous post, where i found it from several of my own researches into mi law.
The "unloaded in barrel or magazine" referance comes from the Firearms laws of michigan PDF document posted on the michigan state police website.
 
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

It states the following about firearms transport - Without a hunting license or transport other than while hunting.

324.43513 Carrying, transporting, or possessing firearm, slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow; hunting
license not required; carrying or possessing unloaded weapon.
Sec. 43513. (1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm without a hunting license if the firearm is unloaded in
both barrel and magazine and either enclosed in a case or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily accessible to any
occupant of the vehicle. A person may carry, transport, or possess a slingshot, bow and arrow, or crossbow without a hunting
license if the slingshot, bow, or crossbow is unstrung, enclosed in a case, or carried in a vehicle in a location that is not readily
accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.
(2) Regardless of whether the person has a license or it is open season for the taking of game, a person may carry, transport,
possess or discharge a firearm, a bow and arrow, or a crossbow if all of the following apply:
(a) The person is not taking or attempting to take game but is engaged in 1 or more of the following activities:
(i) Target practice using an identifiable, artificially constructed target or targets.
(ii) Practice with silhouettes, plinking, skeet, or trap.
(iii) Sighting-in the firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.
(b) The person is, or is accompanied by or has the permission of, either of the following:
(i) The owner of the property on which the activity under subdivision (a) is taking place.
(ii) The lessee of that property for a term of not less than 1 year.
(c) The owner or lessee of the property does not receive remuneration for the activity under subdivision (a).
(3) A person may carry or possess an unloaded weapon at any time if the person is traveling to or from or participating in a
historical reenactment.
History: Add. 1995, Act 57, Imd. Eff. May 24, 1995;—Am. 1996, Act 585, Eff. Mar. 1, 1997;—Am. 1998, Act 129, Eff. Mar. 23, 1999;—Am. 2006, Act
433, Imd. Eff. Oct. 5, 2006.
Popular name: Act 451
Popular name: NREPA

[welshj]

I havent found anything yet that refers to a tubular magazine, or an integral magazine...
just states barrel and magazine.

[welshj]

750.227c Transporting or possessing loaded firearm in or upon vehicle; violation as misdemeanor; penalty;
applicability to person violating MCL 312.10(1)(g).
Sec. 227c. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor
vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or
a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
(3) This section does not apply to a person who violates section 10(1)(g) of chapter II of Act No. 286 of the Public Acts of
1929, as amended, being section 312.10 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982.
750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed
for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 227d. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or
any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more
of the following:
(a) Taken down.
(b) Enclosed in a case.
(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or
a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982.

And it is kind of confusing because there it describes a pistol, but otherwise it's just stated as a firearm?
but here at the beginning it defines firearm as:

8.3t “Firearm” defined.
Sec. 3t. The word “firearm”, except as otherwise specifically defined in the statutes, shall be construed to include any
weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or air as a means of propulsion, except
any smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB’s not exceeding .177 calibre by
means of spring, gas or air.
History: Add. 1959, Act 189, Imd. Eff. July 22, 1959.

[Golden Eagle]

And it is kind of confusing because there it describes a pistol, but otherwise it's just stated as a firearm?
but here at the beginning it defines firearm as:

A pistol is a type of firearm. Does this definition help you?

MCL 750.222 Definitions
...
(e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 26 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals itself as a firearm.
...
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%283n4xqz45qf2nbu55kzxz11nl%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-222

[TucTom]

Where did "unloaded in barrel or magazine" come from?

It appears he found it under chapter 324 (NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION) Which seems to be hunting (which I don't) related.

But the bigger question now does that need to be changed?

[linux203]

And it is kind of confusing because there it describes a pistol, but otherwise it's just stated as a firearm?
but here at the beginning it defines firearm as:

In Michigan, a pistol is a firearm.  A firearm is not necessarily a pistol.  Statues (typically) address one of three groups: Pistols, Firearms including pistols, and Firearms excluding pistols.

Neither of those statues describe a pistol.  They specifically exclude a pistol.  "other than a pistol" means any firearm but a pistol. 

Pistols are handled under the two statutes below.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
...
(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

[part deux]

A removable magazine is not a firearm

A fixed magazine is a component of a firearm and must be emptied.  Lever action rifle is probably the easiest to understand.

[welshj]

That was kind of my point-
It was under a "hunting" section, but it was referring specifically to transporting while NOT in posession of a hunting license.
Which would pretty much mean any other time you're transporting a firearm.

I understand the definition of a firearm, but nowhere does that expressly state pistol in that section.
Then the other section refers to pistols=


Quote from: MCL 750.227

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.





Quote from: MCL 720.231a

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
...
(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.


Understood and agreed.
But why then two seperate distinctions? If a pistol is also a firearm- then yes maybe that portion of the law should be changed.

Because even though it does refer to hunting, it also refers to while not hunting.
why?

it seems to me that there needs to be a distinction.

But, to me- in as far as the intent of the op's question, unloaded in barrel and magazine, i take it to mean cleared, empty, free of ammunition. I know and understand that a seperate magazine is not considered a firearm. However, it is a part of the firearm.
seperate, or integral... either way it's part of the gun. it feeds the ammunition and the pistol or firearm cannot operate without it.

and understanding the recent attitudes towards police, gun control, and the governmental attempts at gun control....

My question is why not empty the magazines?
Without a CHL,  carrying a loaded weapon is not legal.
Carry in a case, or being broken down, or seperate compartments.... legal methods... complicate quick use, or employment of the weapon in a vehicle. So if I can't quickly get my gun? why worry about not having bullets in the magazine?

I see it as a common sense thing.

[LD]

welshj  Would you expect to get arrested for carrying a loaded magazine and no gun?

If the magazine is not in the gun, and the chamber is empty, the gun can't fire.
That satisfies the law.
Why complicate it? Why try to convince people to disassemble their guns & transport them in separate vehicles on different days?

[welshj]

No i would not expect to...
Generally, I wouldnt carry a magazine without having a gun.
But, I also wouldnt carry a crack pipe either. What sense would that make?

While carrying a gun, i carry it loaded and ready to fire. I also carry extra magazines and ammo.
Normally, when I'm going to michigan, Im going shooting and would have anywhere from 9-12 guns in my vehicle and several thousand rounds of ammo.

There is a difference, as I am concealed carry licensed.

Even so however, when I do it- every firearm save my EDC is cleared, cased, and locked.
All ammunition save my EDC rounds are in a locked ammo box and every magazine and tube is clear and empty.
(I own a few lever actions and shotguns that have tube fed actions)
 
The original question was about transporting in the open carry situation without a CHL/CPL.
From my research and understanding I tried to help.

I'm all for discussion. I'm all for 2A freedoms and rights.
I'm all about loving my guns and shooting.

But I am also about doing the right thing, and the common sense thing.

The last time I was stopped by a police officer, at night...
He approached my vehicle to find my inner dome light on.
My vehicle off with the keys on the dashboard.
And both hands on the steering wheel in plain sight.
And me stating that I'm licensed to concealed carry and am armed.

If i'm doing nothing wrong, have nothing to hide...
why act like I am?
Why have ammo in a magazine for a gun thats locked in a case and in my trunk?
convienance? (splg?)

Do right, look right.
I will not comment further on this topic.

Original Poster-
good luck with your firearms and i wish you well.
At this point, to clarify things and make them easier- I'd suggest to get a concealed carry license.
Then you dont have to have a case, a lock, or seperate anything from anything to carry your pistol legally in your vehicle.

[TheQ]

Ultimately, the words of the law are for each of us to interpret. We all have to take the risk that we are comfortable with. We do our fellow man the most justice by referring them to the statute and letting them read and interpret it themselves.