Author Topic: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers  (Read 39079 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2014, 02:22:24 PM »
I don't see how 9mm is the "least" what bias person wrote that test up

Most pro firearms instructors will tell you that you shouldn't carry a caliber less powerful than 9mm.  This is based on years of objective cartridge testing.  The .380 ACP is a notoriously underpenetrating round, and some suggest that if you do carry .380 to carry FMJ to mitigate that.  Having said that, I don't care what you carry, it is your life.  People have been shot with .25 ACP and died.  Would I carry a .25?  No.

What I object to is people who criticize others for the caliber they carry, if it is an effective round, and the argument against .40 most often used is that it is a compromise caliber.  Hey, guess what, all rounds and pistols are a compromise.

Person A: You shoot a .40?  That’s a compromise round.   
Person B: Yes, I compromise size for capacity, and it has more muzzle energy than .45 ACP.  What do you shoot?
Person A: 9mm (G19, M&P, XD).
Person B: And you’re not compromising round size or power for recoil? GTFO.

Person A: You shoot a .40?  That’s a compromise round.   
Person B: Yes, I compromise size for capacity, and it has more muzzle energy than .45 ACP.  What do you shoot?
Person A: 9mm (G26, Shield, XD-S, LC9).
Person B: And you’re not compromising round size or power or capacity or sight radius or barrel length or grip area (amplifying the slightest operator error) for gun size? GTFO.

Person A: You shoot a .40?  That’s a compromise round.   
Person B: Yes, I compromise size for capacity, and it has more muzzle energy than .45 ACP.  What do you shoot?
Person A: 9mm, +P
Person B: Why, so you can get .40 standard pressure velocity only with less power using a smaller bullet because 9mm standard load is insufficient? GTFO.

Person A: You shoot a .40?  That’s a compromise round.   
Person B: Yes, I compromise size for capacity, and it has more muzzle energy than .45 ACP.  What do you shoot?
Person A: 9mm, Buffalo Bore +P+++++
Person B: Why, so you can get .40 standard pressure ballistics using a smaller round because 9mm standard load is insufficient? GTFO.

Person A: You shoot a .40?  That’s a compromise round.   
Person B: Yes, I compromise size for capacity, and it has more muzzle energy than .45 ACP.  What do you shoot?
Person A: .380 ACP (G42, P3AT, LCP, P380, P238, Bodyguard)
Person B: And you’re not compromising round size or power or capacity or sight radius or barrel length or grip area (amplifying the slightest operator error) or penetration for a tiny gun that’s small and easy to carry using a round with notoriously poor stopping power? GTFO. Now.

Every gun and round is a compromise in some respect.  A pistol is a compromise for a rifle.  5.56 NATO is a compromise for 7.62 NATO.  A .45 ACP is a compromise for a .357 Magnum (by most accounts), yet cops jumped on the chance to use a .45 ACP over a .357 Mag.  Shoot what you want and what you can control and what you will carry.

People who criticize .40 S&W carriers are just like the CCers who criticize OCers, and they do it using the same myth tactics.  Stop it. 

Curiously enough, we don’t see the same controversy and condemnation with .357 Sig as we do with the .40, even though a) it is more expensive than .40, so you’re not going to shoot it as much, b) it has much more blast (noise/pressure) and isn’t as pleasant to shoot as the .40, so you’re not going to shoot it as much, c) it isn’t as soft shooting as the .40, so you’re not going to shoot it as much, d) because of the necked down cartridge it is harder to reload than the straight-walled .40, so you might not shoot it as much if you are a reloader.  So I would say that if the choice of going to a .357 Sig means you’re not going to shoot it as much in practice during the year, it’s probably a poor carry choice.  Like the 10mm, it’s not a novice cartridge.

Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2014, 02:25:29 PM »
lowly .22LR has one of the highest death rates of any of the calibers... however, it's not very good as a drop right now round.

Offline SD40VE

  • SE Region Posse
  • Posts: 996
  • New Haven, Macomb County
  • First Name (Displayed): Bradley
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2014, 02:28:30 PM »
lowly .22LR has one of the highest death rates of any of the calibers... however, it's not very good as a drop right now round.

thats because it ricochets inside the body.

Offline Jeff

  • Posts: 1166
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2014, 02:29:54 PM »
We all know the best SD round is Oddjob's hat.

Offline Super Trucker

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 473
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2014, 02:32:07 PM »
I was told years ago tjat if you are forced to shoot somebody with a handgun,  your goal is to make them leak. Once they leek enough they stop, is a 115gr round going to make a hole as big as a 230gr round?
I am just a trucker but basic math makes me think a bigger hole will leak more.

Offline Jeff

  • Posts: 1166
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2014, 02:35:31 PM »
First shot:  Is he still coming after you? shoot again.
Second shot: Is he still coming after you? shoot again.
Third shot: Is he still coming after you? shoot again.
4th shot (only for us 9mm guys): Is he still coming after you, shoot 6 more times.

Offline SD40VE

  • SE Region Posse
  • Posts: 996
  • New Haven, Macomb County
  • First Name (Displayed): Bradley
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2014, 02:36:59 PM »
First shot:  Is he still coming after you? shoot again.
Second shot: Is he still coming after you? shoot again.
Third shot: Is he still coming after you? shoot again.
4th shot (only for us 9mm guys): Is he still coming after you, shoot 6 more times.

17th shot....why the hell wont he stop...oh yeah i have a 9mm hahahaha... reload time

Offline Jeff

  • Posts: 1166
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2014, 02:42:17 PM »
17th shot....why the hell wont he stop...oh yeah i have a 9mm hahahaha... reload time

46 rounds GD IT, I'm out of ammo.  Good thing that guy walks slower than hell, maybe I should just run away.

Attacker: GD mosquitos are bad this time of year.

Offline SD40VE

  • SE Region Posse
  • Posts: 996
  • New Haven, Macomb County
  • First Name (Displayed): Bradley
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2014, 03:07:26 PM »
46 rounds GD IT, I'm out of ammo.  Good thing that guy walks slower than hell, maybe I should just run away.

Attacker: GD mosquitos are bad this time of year.

+1

Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2014, 05:43:55 PM »
46 rounds GD IT, I'm out of ammo.  Good thing that guy walks slower than hell, maybe I should just run away.

Attacker: GD mosquitos are bad this time of year.
Maybe, just maybe you might want to consider shot placement :)

Offline Jeff

  • Posts: 1166
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2014, 05:50:38 PM »
Shot placement is only for people trying to get pregnant.

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2014, 07:40:44 PM »

lowly .22LR has one of the highest death rates of any of the calibers... however, it's not very good as a drop right now round.

[[fact]]

That's Wikipedia language for "citation needed".
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2014, 08:09:46 PM »
[[fact]]

That's Wikipedia language for "citation needed".
Wut?  Have I EVER mislead you?  LOL

This isn't facebook, I get to make it up to fit my argument...

But just for you

Quote


source


Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2014, 08:56:25 PM »
This isn't facebook, I get to make it up to fit my argument...

In God we trust.  All others must show data.  :D

Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2014, 09:14:35 PM »
In God we trust.  All others must show data.  :D
dang it, all the rules, I can't take all these rules :)

Offline Jeff

  • Posts: 1166
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2014, 10:49:37 PM »
that 32 is a bad mamma-jamma

Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2014, 09:30:56 AM »
that 32 is a bad mamma-jamma

The results of the .32 are umm "surprising?".

maybe the limited amount of data points?

It is an interesting article with a couple of surprises.  Kind of reinforces the idea that any gun is better then no gun.

Offline SD40VE

  • SE Region Posse
  • Posts: 996
  • New Haven, Macomb County
  • First Name (Displayed): Bradley
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2014, 10:07:44 AM »
thats just it, any gun is better than no gun.

shoot what you are accurate and comfortable with.

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4038
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2014, 11:00:31 AM »
Who carries a .32, and what type of encounters are they more likely to be in?  My guess is they had good shot placement because they were real close!

Offline SD40VE

  • SE Region Posse
  • Posts: 996
  • New Haven, Macomb County
  • First Name (Displayed): Bradley
Re: Why not to depend on Wiki-anything for answers
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2014, 11:07:54 AM »
Who carries a .32, and what type of encounters are they more likely to be in?  My guess is they had good shot placement because they were real close!

i rarely see .32 ammo anywhere. i know the dam store up in oscoda has 1 box for like $35 lol i dont even know a firearm made in the caliber thats for sale. my LGS doesnt carry any .32's