Author Topic: Power Outage.  (Read 29712 times)

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Offline Jeff

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2014, 12:52:03 AM »


Really the issue with transfer switches is not the concern of backfeed due to malfunctioning main breakers its the concern of morons not following procedure and leaving the main on. I have read the files from a number of backfeed death investigations and in every case they found the main breaker fully in the on or energized position. This is a failure of the operator not the breaker.

So in essence the reason for transfer switches and interlock devices is to keep idiots from hurting or killing others and to allow said idiots to safely operate a generator attached to their home.

I am not one of those people, I do not feel that I am causing any danger to anybody.  Electricity isn't to be messed around with.  If you mess with 440 you don't screw around and are probably not one of those generic morons.  I understand you can always do more for safety but where does it end.

As far as third degree burns from reactivating the meter, my neighbor has done it at least 15 times because we lose power constantly over here.  On average it's probably 6 times per year for more than a day at a time.  DTE was given 30 days to upgrade the area to code but they only did the minimum because it would cost them way too much money so we are prone to excessive power outages.  It has only been twice since their supposed upgrade so far but the year isn't over (I won't count if it's only for like an hour or two).

I have faith in my main actually being open.  Maybe I should get a transfer switch because we lose power so often I just don't feel that I need it.  $279 at home depot, maybe one of these days when I have the money. 


Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2014, 07:29:59 AM »
I am not one of those people, I do not feel that I am causing any danger to anybody.  Electricity isn't to be messed around with.  If you mess with 440 you don't screw around and are probably not one of those generic morons.  I understand you can always do more for safety but where does it end.

As far as third degree burns from reactivating the meter, my neighbor has done it at least 15 times because we lose power constantly over here.  On average it's probably 6 times per year for more than a day at a time.  DTE was given 30 days to upgrade the area to code but they only did the minimum because it would cost them way too much money so we are prone to excessive power outages.  It has only been twice since their supposed upgrade so far but the year isn't over (I won't count if it's only for like an hour or two).

I have faith in my main actually being open.  Maybe I should get a transfer switch because we lose power so often I just don't feel that I need it.  $279 at home depot, maybe one of these days when I have the money.

Reading through this thread brings back bad memories. In the Downriver community I lived in the power went out what seemed to be almost a weekly basis. Rain = power out, wind = power out, barometric pressure too high/low = power out (just kidding) Usually for a couple of hours but, at times for days. DTE always bubble gummed & pop sickle sticked a solution to the problem IMHO. Been gone nearly two years and have had one (1) power outage that affected roughly 20 of the homes in my neighborhood. Was fixed in two hours by APS. No issues since.

Mind you we have monsoon rains here, extreme heat/extreme demand for electricity, haboobs (giant sand storms) and the occasional drunk illegal immigrant driving into power poles. So while not perfect, APS is vastly better at fixing things than DTE in my experience.  YMMV. Stay safe and hope your power is always there when you need it. :)
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2014, 08:18:00 AM »
I am not one of those people, I do not feel that I am causing any danger to anybody.  Electricity isn't to be messed around with.  If you mess with 440 you don't screw around and are probably not one of those generic morons.  I understand you can always do more for safety but where does it end.

As far as third degree burns from reactivating the meter, my neighbor has done it at least 15 times because we lose power constantly over here.  On average it's probably 6 times per year for more than a day at a time.  DTE was given 30 days to upgrade the area to code but they only did the minimum because it would cost them way too much money so we are prone to excessive power outages.  It has only been twice since their supposed upgrade so far but the year isn't over (I won't count if it's only for like an hour or two).

I have faith in my main actually being open.  Maybe I should get a transfer switch because we lose power so often I just don't feel that I need it.  $279 at home depot, maybe one of these days when I have the money.
But you are!!! Your posts in this thread have proven it. If you can't be trusted to do the safe thing with common electricty, when it comes to endangering another person, how can you be trusted when it comes to being arund with a loaded gun?!?!?

And your neighbor is an unsafe idiot too.
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Offline part deux

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2014, 10:59:05 AM »
As correctly pointed out there are a couple of inexpensive and fairly easy to install options.  Someone's life is not worth avoiding proper safe and LEGAL installation.

You're at the outdoor range setting up a new target.  Someone on the line is handling their firearm.  They are positive it's unloaded and you shouldn't be worried about them handling the firearm.

Do it the right way with a gen panel or interlock.

Personally I like the gen panel as it allows me to have better control of the circuits that are powered, especially since I have three freezers.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2014, 11:20:49 AM »
It's interesting that every argument I have seen on this forum involves PAT.  He just recently insulted birdseed away, and now feels the need to throw insults at me.  I'm too old for this crap, this kind of behavior should have ended in high school.


Offline linux203

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2014, 11:37:56 AM »
You evidently had a very comfortable stay at the Holiday Inn Express, Daniel.

The breaker on the generator will only trip if there is a difference of potential that creates a sufficient load. If the generator is feeding an ungrounded conductor, the breaker will not trip. Even if the lineman is in series with the generator supplied voltage and a grounded  conductor, a grounding conductor, or ground.

I was referencing the breaker on the generator for protection of the interior wiring, not the linesman.


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Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline Super Trucker

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2014, 03:33:35 PM »
It's interesting that every argument I have seen on this forum involves PAT.  He just recently insulted birdseed away, and now feels the need to throw insults at me.  I'm too old for this crap, this kind of behavior should have ended in high school.



The point he started out NICELY to make is that what you are doing is wrong. You keep arguing causing him to try to get the point across.
I will say it very easy, since you admitted you are doing it wrong and are to cheap to spend the money to fix the problem you caused, yet have money for guns and ammo I would say that problem should have been learned in high school. It is what I would call priorities.

And as a side note if Pat chased birdseed away I would like offer pat a thank you for a job well done, that guy is a problem waiting to happen, he reminded me of neil with all of his self created drama.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 05:05:38 PM by Super Trucker »

Offline Jeff

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2014, 03:52:01 PM »
Because insults and personal attacks are always the mature way to handle things.  I have spoken with several people who have no problem with it, I even stated when I have the money I might install a transfer switch. 

That's excellent that you condone the outright insulting of another person on a forum because you didn't like the other person.  It doesn't make them right, it just makes them.....  Well not very nice person.

I say ill unhook the meter, that wasn't even good enough now ill somehow stick my fingers in the prongs and fry myself, there was no answer good enough for someone who just wanted to argue every single thing you have to say.

What problem did I cause?

Ah I'm done here, marking post as read so we can move on to next week where there is another argument involving the same person.

Offline Super Trucker

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2014, 03:55:56 PM »
Because insults and personal attacks are always the mature way to handle things.  I have spoken with several people who have no problem with it, I even stated when I have the money I might install a transfer switch. 

That's excellent that you condone the outright insulting of another person on a forum because you didn't like the other person.  It doesn't make them right, it just makes them.....  Well not very nice person.

I say ill unhook the meter, that wasn't even good enough now ill somehow stick my fingers in the prongs and fry myself, there was no answer good enough for someone who just wanted to argue every single thing you have to say.

What problem did I cause?

Ah I'm done here, marking post as read so we can move on to next week where there is another argument involving the same person.
The point you can not seem to comprehend is that you haven't caused a problem YET, but there is a possibility you could kill somebody and you say when I have enough money I will get around to it, yet you keep talking about the money you piss away on things of less priority. That in my opinion makes you not a nice person.

Offline Golden Eagle

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2014, 05:04:10 PM »
"I thought the generator was unplugged" is like saying "I didn't think the gun was loaded."

   What he said.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

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Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2014, 07:10:21 PM »
Because insults and personal attacks are always the mature way to handle things.  I have spoken with several people who have no problem with it, I even stated when I have the money I might install a transfer switch. 

That's excellent that you condone the outright insulting of another person on a forum because you didn't like the other person.  It doesn't make them right, it just makes them.....  Well not very nice person.

I say ill unhook the meter, that wasn't even good enough now ill somehow stick my fingers in the prongs and fry myself, there was no answer good enough for someone who just wanted to argue every single thing you have to say.

What problem did I cause?

Ah I'm done here, marking post as read so we can move on to next week where there is another argument involving the same person.
You apparently do not know what an insult or personal attack are.

You can consider it personal, in that you are the one that is engaging in a practice that has a very high propensity to kill someone. It is for that reason and no other whatsoever that the authors of NFPA 70 included provisions specifically on the manner in which stand-by generators are to be connected to premises wiring. But you are so much more wise than the numerous persons that develop and update that manual.

And your insipid analogy of how your phone will produce a line voltage through the charger is nothing less than ridiculous.

I will argue electrical safety until the cows come home.

It is my profession. I have over 40 years as an electrician. I have worked on practically  every type of electrical system imaginable.

I have worked on limited energy data wiring, coal powered generating plants, gas turbine generating plants, nearly every single automotive plant in southeastern Michigan (Woodhaven Stamping, Poletown, Sterling Stamping, Livonia Transmission, Michigan Truck, Detroit Diesel, Ford Rouge, Double Eagle Galvanizer, Great Lakes Steel, Dodge Main, Chrysler Jefferson, Trenton Channel Power House, St Clair Power House, Avoca Power House, Greektown Casino...), housing projects, apartment complexes,  construction of the McNamara Terminal, Ford Field, Comerica Park, Joe Lewis Arena, Troy Sports, Macomb County Jail, Wyandotte Waste Water Treatment, Detroit Water Pumping, Detroit WasteWater, Great Lakes Crossing... When you drive by the Detroit Zoo and see the lights on the water tower, I put them there.

You want to talk electricity? You've come to the right guy.
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2014, 08:38:20 PM »
Wow, for a minute there I thought you might have been on some of my projects, but then I didn't see any GM assembly plants listed. :D

Oops, just noticed you said Poletown.  GM Hamtramck Assembly?

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2014, 08:40:40 PM »
Wow, for a minute there I thought you might have been on some of my projects, but then I didn't see any GM assembly plants listed. :D
No. Poletown isn't an assembly plant.
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Offline part deux

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2014, 09:03:56 PM »
thanks to this thread, I got my gen panel mostly installed.  I'm running three new circuits for the freezers and those will still need to be wired.  But, everything works as it's supposed it!

Offline linux203

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Power Outage.
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2014, 11:16:47 PM »

thanks to this thread, I got my gen panel mostly installed.  I'm running three new circuits for the freezers and those will still need to be wired.  But, everything works as it's supposed it!

Great!! Out of curiosity, which one did you get?

Check the combined current of all three. If they are in close proximity, you have proper wiring, and they're under 20A, put them on a single 20A circuit. Then you can power some other goodies in the house.

But make sure you balance the load across both legs of the generator.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline jgillmanjr

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2014, 12:18:36 AM »
Doesn't matter. Wasn't wired in accordance with NFPA 70.

Oh, but it damn well does matter. Failed equipment != negligent.

Maybe linemen should take tag out procedures to the field and disconnect service to the houses on that circuit until the work is complete?

Because to not do so under the assumption that the line won't be energized is the equivalent of receiving a firearm from someone and just taking their word it's been cleared.
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Offline part deux

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2014, 09:20:46 AM »
Great!! Out of curiosity, which one did you get?

Check the combined current of all three. If they are in close proximity, you have proper wiring, and they're under 20A, put them on a single 20A circuit. Then you can power some other goodies in the house.

But make sure you balance the load across both legs of the generator.
Got the 10 circuit unit, set it up for 30 amps.  Tried to balance it best I could.  After I get the individual freezer circuits run, we'll be in great shape.  This was mostly to make it easy for my wife if I'm ever traveling.  Two freezers on one leg, one freezer and fridge on the other leg.  As long as they don't try to simultaneously start, life should be good.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2014, 10:08:54 AM »
Oh, but it damn well does matter. Failed equipment != negligent.

Maybe linemen should take tag out procedures to the field and disconnect service to the houses on that circuit until the work is complete?

Because to not do so under the assumption that the line won't be energized is the equivalent of receiving a firearm from someone and just taking their word it's been cleared.
The negligence is not in the failed equipment. It's in the act of improper installation.
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Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2014, 05:26:08 PM »
Here is the automatic transfer switch I wired up for my dad.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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Offline linux203

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Re: Power Outage.
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2014, 08:49:49 PM »
Ohh the big 'un. 

Since your load center is now a sub-panel, did you have to re-route your neutrals and grounds?

The electrician that wired my current house brought the neutral and grounds together on the same side as the circuit.  As a result, half the grounds and half the neutrals needed to be moved. :(  Not that the original install wasn't to code, it was just an added step.

Have you thought about wiring the AC into the panel or is the generator sufficient for the startup current?
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36