What is OFF LIMITS w/CPL?

[skunkworks]

I'm pleased to hear that most of the pistol free zones are allowable with a valid CPL.  However, I'm a bit confused on where it is off limits to open carry with a valid CPL.  A quick search didn't turn up much in plain English.  I know federal buildings are, the post office, courtrooms, ...
Where else, assuming I don't have special permission?  I am aware of personal property and trespass laws.  I'm not asking about that.
Any help or clarification would be a big help to me and maybe other noobies.

[Warchild]

Use this chart as a quick guide:

[skunkworks]

Thanks for that.

[13mile9]

Being that I am newly immersed into the OC situations....I have a question concerning the OC/CC Chart that is posted.  Could you please post the penal code area/law that supstantiates the section  OC w/CPL    ...... churches yes... theatres yes... bars yes.....  etc...

My understanding was they were off limits period.  Completely gun free. 

Forgive me if it posted somewhere else.      
Thanks

[Bronson]

Being that I am newly immersed into the OC situations....I have a question concerning the OC/CC Chart that is posted.  Could you please post the penal code area/law that supstantiates the section  OC w/CPL   ...... churches yes... theatres yes... bars yes.....  etc...

My understanding was they were off limits period.  Completely gun free.  

MCL 750.234d, know it, live it.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

Courts are still off limits due to Michigan Supreme Court Administrative Order 2001-1:

Security Policies for Court Facilities

Supreme Court Administrative Order 2001-1 states that weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy. Each court is required to submit a written policy conforming with this order to the State Court Administrator for approval. Courts are encouraged to collaborate with other entities in shared facilities and, where appropriate, to work with local funding units in developing the policy, which may be a separate plan or part of a general security program.

MCL 750.234d does not apply to carrying a concealed firearm, that is covered under MCL 28.425o.

Bronson

[FatboyCykes]

Does anyone ever read stickies ever anymore?


Thanks Bronson.

[13mile9]

Thanks Bronson....  just to clarify.... the OC w/CPL  section of the Carry Chart is based upon MCL 750.234 (2d) ....  i.e. I can OC in these listed areas as long as I have permission to do so.   MCL 750.234 (2c) also excempts the CPL holder, but the CPL holder is then governed under the rules/laws and pistol free zones of MCL 28.425o.    Did I close the circle correctly???   

Also to note:  forgive my wording in my original question:  "completely gun free..."   I do understand they are not completely off limits.   I've read these laws hundreds of times...they drive my nuts....   

[ghostrider]

Thanks Bronson....  just to clarify.... the OC w/CPL  section of the Carry Chart is based upon MCL 750.234 (2d) ....  i.e. I can OC in these listed areas as long as I have permission to do so.   MCL 750.234 (2c) also excempts the CPL holder, but the CPL holder is then governed under the rules/laws and pistol free zones of MCL 28.425o.    Did I close the circle correctly???   

Also to note:  forgive my wording in my original question:  "completely gun free..."   I do understand they are not completely off limits.   I've read these laws hundreds of times...they drive my nuts....   

Read MCL 28.425o again. Nowhere does it say that a CPL holder is "governed" by anything. 

[Bronson]

How could MCL 750.234d refer to MCL 28.425o when .234d was last amended in 1994 and .425o wasn't enacted until 2000.  This CPL law didn't exist when .234d was written.

And the very first line of MCL 28.425o states (emphasis mine):

Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited

So if the weapon is NOT concealed then this law is not applicable and any prohibition would have to come from MCL 750.234d, which exempts CPL holders but in no way refers authority to the CPL statute.

They are two distinct and separate laws that cover different areas of firearm possession.

Bronson

[FatboyCykes]

Again, all this information can be found within the many stickies under this sub forum.

[ghostrider]

Again, all this information can be found within the many stickies under this sub forum.

That's why I didn't provide it in my post.

[13mile9]

This is all great stuff...thanks for clarifying.  The ability to OC with a valid CPL in certain "gun free zones" is something hard to wrap your mind around...especially without assistance concerning how things are "exactly" worded in our laws...etc...   

To understand this issue and apply it (for me personally) is not as simple as reading a brochure, reading stickies, etc..., but asking, asking, and reclarifying ever aspect of wordings, etc....

[FatboyCykes]

I understand and agree to an extent, the stickies don't answer every question, there are many gray areas that are still yet unsettled.  The questions asked however don't fall into this category, they aren't gray areas, they are clear in the law and the stickies.

I don't say this to come off as or to actually be harsh, but the info is there and you should try to get used to finding it on your own, how can you trust our answers?  You can ask all you want, and read ours or others answers all you want, but at the end of the day, you will want to verify the information on your own.  Most penalties for breaking gun laws aren't slaps on the wrist so it's always good to verify.

[13mile9]

Oh yes, yes.  Totally agree with that.  Each person is completely responsible for himself.   In returning to the top of this thread & the questions raised:    the knee jerk reaction that myself, and I'm sure many others have, is finding out "what I(we) haven't been told" or "what i(we) did and did not see" in MCL 750.234 & MCL 28.425o.     "you mean, I can actually go in there with my weapon!??...I didn't know that!!!"      Many of us with a CPL, have first in our minds:

MCL 28.425o says:

Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited;

but did not know how to apply/understand:

 MCL 750.234 does not apply to:

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

People, like myself, have only been thinking "concealed" carry, so when we see "prohibited", it would mean "my weapon cannot go in there."    People like myself have wrongly focused on MCL 28.425o, and misinterpreted the application.  (for a lack of better terms).   We left the issue scratching our heads, not being able to tie it all together. 

As printed in the brochure, the stickies, and in our penal code:  many of our laws have no clarity (they are grey and unclear) until someone writes an official opinion on it.   Wouldn't it be great if the opening statement of MCL 28.425o "carrying concealed weapon prohibited, but OC all you want!"     (emphasis mine)     


I.E. -- you guys moderating, hosting, etc..., have been chewing on this cud for a long time...and it is "old hat" "old news", and you will encounter more folks like myself, with even more frequency, jumping on this sight, and not believing everything they read (at first).   Not because they don't want to, but because they have "incomplete" interpretations and understandings of our state penal code.   

To conclude; I am so thankful to have more of the facts straight, and they aren't grey to me anymore.  Thanks! 

Question: is there buried in a thread somewhere a detailed discussion on the "private property" issue....being that many of the gun free zones are private property...theatre, sports arena, etc.....  (also, the "encounters").

[Bronson]

you guys moderating, hosting, etc..., have been chewing on this cud for a long time...and it is "old hat" "old news", and you will encounter more folks like myself, with even more frequency, jumping on this sight, and not believing everything they read (at first).   Not because they don't want to, but because they have "incomplete" interpretations and understandings of our state penal code.   

Which is why I try to be patient and answer questions.  It took me a lot of reading, pondering, and questionibg before I became comfortable with, and understood, the differences between 750.234d and 28.425o and this often seems to be the most confusing aspect for people new to OC.  I know that I had NO idea that Michigan had two distinct PFZ lists (actually, .234d applies to all firearms not just pistols) before I found the MI open carry group.  There was no mention of it during my CPL class, and honestly there didn't need to be since the purpose of the CPL class is to teach you about laws as they pertain to carrying concealed so .234d has no bearing on that class.

When I started asking newb questions the good folks on OCDO (MOC didn't exist yet) were kind enough to answer them and point me to the correct places where I could read it for myself.  I try to continue with that method for new folks just coming to OC.

Bronson

[hamaneggs]

I remember some time back that the head judge in Hillsdale was going to allow firearms in the courthouse.Haven't heard anything since.Hillsdale College is the best college in the nation.Doesn't take federal funds in order to teach the constitution and conservative values.They take private donations and I think they're tax deductable.

[DonS]

Use this chart as a quick guide:

Thank you so much!  I am new to open carry but I do have my CPL.  As soon as I read the laws and I saw "(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon."  I was immediately confused.  This is exactly what I was looking for.